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howlala

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October 1st, 1949, Mao "formed" the People's Republic of China (PRC). PRC did not exist before that day. The thousands of years of "China" and dynasties are not what the PRC formed to be.

You're smoking something. What "China" was before the PRC is analogous to England, in the progression of England-to-UK (in proportional terms of population and aligned people). It was massive. What you see on the "map of China" doesn't provide the subset details for separation of cultures and separation of powers that in fact - did exist in China. We in the West generalized what was inside that box. Entire cultures in China were slaughtered and/or assimilated into the Borg of greater China (again, more accurately labeled PRC once formed). You know that Szechuan food on the menu in (Americanized) Chinese restaurants? Szechuan was its own culture and "nation" yet doesn't exist any more. Just like many subsets no longer exist when the "formable" takes over.

My point is that if you have enough power and influence, you can take over any "box" such as "China" and form it into something like PRC. Whether you start with one single Province and later own 100+ Provinces, and do your "Mao Purge" or whatever - any/all locations on this planet could be assimilated into a Borg of a formable nation, with enough sheer power and will behind it. In the Real World, we're lucky we didn't have the Mao of North Africa, the Mao of South America, the Mao of Oceania, etc. If we did, we'd have a lot more "People's Republic of _____"
That example you made about Sichuan province was just wrong. Sichuan was brought into Chinese fold about 2500 years ago by Qin shihuang. The current Sichuanese cuisine and the distinct Sichuan dialect are mere local developments of Han culture, like how people from different part of Germany have their own dialects. Sichuan has been considered as part of Chinese proper and the people of sichuan consider themselves Chinese long beofore Mao was even born. Even though Qin Shihuang was a murderous centralising tyrant like how you described Mao or Stalin, that does not mean that you can compare the socio-geopolitical situation of chinese warring states period 2000 years ago to that of the formation of the UK. Neither is Mao's unification of china or Stalin's take over of the USSR comparable to "unification" of north Africa by some hypothetical warlord because you are generalising history. The incorporation of new regions, peoples, cultural practices and ideas into the Chinese identity gradually took place over its 4000ish years of history under successive generations of rules using different policies; not always genocide. Mao did not engage in genocide to assimilate any region into the PRC like the borg as you've described.
 
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howlala

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It’s not that people in China are better at it, it’s that that particular technology is a closely guarded secret that foreigners didn’t have access to. I do find it a bit odd that foreigners can’t buy/steal/extort it tho.
Other countries produce silk as well but you could say that they have optimised it's production because they've been doing it for so long.
 
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GrafKeks

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Other countries produce silk as well but you could say that they have optimised it's production because they've been doing it for so long.
Guarding the ability to produce is relative optimization, not absolute though.
 

The_Real_China_WU-Empire

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Probably an attempt to appeal to the Chinese market. It's all about the euro bills in the end. Though I doubt a game like Victoria will even get approved in China.
It may never succeed.
The government of Communist China just banned the Steam in these few days. And in the biggest Paradox forum in China we called Baidutieba(https://tieba.baidu.com/f?ie=utf-8&kw=維多利亞3&fr=search), Chinese players pretend it not happened. They tell each other ''the Ban is fake‘’, even they can't play the Steam game anymore in their whole life. Chinese players also reported the one who said the truth to the government, so they can get the bonus for reporting.

I'm in Switzerland, so I'm fine. But players in China are now undergoing a terrifying political censorship. This is what really happening in China that you can't image.

Horrible dictatorship of Communism:eek:

rc3i3eten1881.png

This picture says that ''Steam is a scam website, so you can‘t log in'' by the Ministry of Public Security of Chinese government.
 
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Nibbes69

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I just want to appreciate this view on history

It is neither total predetermination, nor absolute chaos, but something reasonable; even if the outcome is strange, it should at least be explainable (if not totally logical/rational)

I just love how the devs seem to be actually approaching history in the form of the How and the Why, rather than the When and Where
I like it as well for most part but I do think they get “tunnel vision” at times with this. I agree everything in game that develops should have coherent or rational formulas or circumstances to it that created such environment for it to grow.

But I generally think Orwell notion of “The opinion that art should have nothing to do with politics is itself a political attitude” is dangerously closed minded view that tries to convince itself otherwise that’s it not.
That brings me to my concern about paradox trying to politicized mechanics of game to replicate class struggle between pops and interest groups.

For example, the notion of “working class” in Europe is not even thing in US or parts of it especially then. You have “blue collar” class but unlike working class you can be rich and blue collar.
This avoids the radicalization of lower classes or people who feel shun by system. Also when government plays role of a “ref” between bourgeoisie, interest groups, and classes it gives system “deniability” somewhat from being ill intended.

A capitalist democratic society for example can be petty, stubborn, and prideful like any group or system but it often does not take more active social engineering roles of ancien regimes, socialistic regimes, or fascist ones. They are more “uncaring” and empathetic at worse but not making long term plans especially based around ideological idealism or fanaticism.

The closest thing we have to extreme capitalist regime in real life is US or modern Russian federation. We do have fictional one somewhat with bioshock but that’s might not be good place to base ideology extremism of ahistorical anarcho liberal dictatorship or regime.
Also would something like Russian Federation be anarcho liberal dictatorship in some ways???
 
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grommile

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But I generally think Orwell notion of “The opinion that art should have nothing to do with politics is itself a political attitude” is dangerously closed minded view that tries to convince itself otherwise that’s it not.
How, exactly, can a statement about where politics should or should not appear be anything other than political?

I'm sure there's a way, but I'm having trouble imagining it.
 
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Nibbes69

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How, exactly, can a statement about where politics should or should not appear be anything other than political?

I'm sure there's a way, but I'm having trouble imagining it.
Economicist and some capitalist can be very apolitical to point they will play both sides to point of becoming “tool”(they have no allegiances or strict moral codes). They spread for biggest bidder who might have political or other personal motives.

Let’s use modern capitalist like Vince McMahon. Do you think he cares about Saudi or messed up stuff they do or he just happy to take his money and leave like most American oil companies. He lets a foreign country use his company for propaganda within that nation to show “hey we are getting better see!”.

This dynamic pokes multiple holes into “class struggles” dynamic which is way more prevalent in Europe and most ancien regimes.
In capitalist society especially they democratic/republic one they are not always directly ill intended or controlling of power like other type of regimes.
They are just uncaring and we oppose anything that takes money from them without a return or somewhat reasonable justification(like being in total war).

Capitalist and bourgeoisie outside of ancien regimes aren’t vindictive or regulating lower class. More stuff that legal more they can profit honestly.

Europeans use to heavily criticize gilded age American raw capitalism for these reasons. You get stuff like Wild West and economic barons especially in rural areas.

By allowing economic freedom to extreme they show how contrary and selfish individuals or groups can become even if from “humble” origins.

You get billionaires and rise of international corporations like Ford, Rockefeller, and “big business” who if not careful will actively work together to target weaker/smaller competition by any means. They will “buddy buddy” into economics oligarchs. They could literally watch world burn around them from ivory towers and gated communities while drinking at lake with money some have.

With peasants and most pre industrial lower classes they are very “shortsighted” or local in world view. If they are fed, entertainment, and “secured”(taken care of somewhat) they can actually be rather easy to please in good times.

It’s that mindset “my daddy was farmer, his daddy was farmer, his daddy daddy was farmer, and so will you likely be farmer like me” is what they would tell their kids.

There was saying in US or by Europeans about US after world war 2. “How do you expect boys who visited Paris and Europe to just return to farm and be happy”. Like French Revolution you have to “expose” them to “alternative” way of life or some humans might not question their “place” in society otherwise unless times are bad(famine, war, disease, etc).

On other end of things as red foreman said “I saw world in 2 and Korea. It shot at me”. Lol. World wars made one part of US more “Eurocentric/Anglocentric” in global views points but other half only got “reminded” of Washington words about Europe. “Do not involved yourself in endless conflicts and politics there”.

The “working class” identity was far from universal especially back then even in Europe itself. The Soviets “politicalized” their peasantry like French Revolution did with theirs.
Like Rome “give them entertainment and bread and they will never revolt” is perfect way to describe lower classes especially before industrialization revolution regardless of regime or ideology of state
 
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Nibbes69

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How, exactly, can a statement about where politics should or should not appear be anything other than political?

I'm sure there's a way, but I'm having trouble imagining it.
Think how Europeans mock mass consumerism culture here and “low culture” entertainment even into modern day. The businesses aren’t just feeding them “propaganda” or that nonsense “subliminal messaging of illuminati“. They are appealing to lowest common denominators and causal entertainment because it makes them money and demand.
People for example watch tv in 50s to get away/escapism from worries of work and politics.
One reason many Americans hate stuff like politics in sports or entertainment. “There a time and place” in their mindset.

Let’s compare this to Europe where national soccer/football league becomes most nationalistic competition in undertones. Like north Ireland vs Ireland or Ukraine vs Russia turning into fights among fans at times.
Also you have soccer teams identify as “working class” teams in British soccer league.

Auburn and Alabama are big rivals here in college football but people won’t stab each other over it like some Italy.
 

Nibbes69

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How, exactly, can a statement about where politics should or should not appear be anything other than political?

I'm sure there's a way, but I'm having trouble imagining it.
The Irish guy in video asked English descendant Arthur Morgan is his “people” were English lovers(loyalist) or Jacobins. Which he replies “my people were peasants. They had no time for politics”. Sean response and Arthur reaction afterwards in video helps sum up different mindsets that started form between Europe and Americans.
 
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The_Real_China_WU-Empire

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The closest thing we have to extreme capitalist regime in real life is US or modern Russian federation. We do have fictional one somewhat with bioshock but that’s might not be good place to base ideology extremism of ahistorical anarcho liberal dictatorship or regime.
Also would something like Russian Federation be anarcho liberal dictatorship in some ways???
I agree with most of waht you said, but the United States and Russia should definitely not be the same type of capitalism.
Russia is oligarchic capitalism, while the United States is a combination of multinational companies and small-medium sized enterprises.
 
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Nibbes69

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I agree with most of waht you said, but the United States and Russia should definitely not be the same type of capitalism.
Russia is oligarchic capitalism, while the United States is a combination of multinational companies and small-medium sized enterprises.
True, but Russia to their fairness inherited state system and ruins of Soviet Union with no really “capitalist” foundation like US.

The US had history of democratic institutions and capitalism organizations even before our founding so “transition” was easier and less forced.

Also I did point out difference between American and Russia one. Russia is less democratic(not full on authoritarian anymore but “hybrid” regime). So like an “anarcho liberal bourgeoisie dictatorship” they “choice” when to “disregard the process” while in US you have multiple clear contracts and laws avoiding that.

I agree it should be different from US But like capitalist state the modern Russians like American government are often thinking in “business terms” like fellow corporations or capitalist to point they are arguably their peers.

The Russian federation is example of worse excessive in raw capitalism. I always believed everything in moderation myself. In Russia billionaires literally run place. Even Putin power is not as unchallenged as Saudi king or leader in CCP China or Premier before him. He can get “deposed” by rivaling millionaires, state oligarchs, mob, and corporations within Russia itself.

Now in US we have “lobbyists” which are endless list of private sector interests and investments into political system. Kind of like a “economic Congress of capitalist” or competing interests within system. Our laws look “corrupt” to some(some are) but they minimize excesses of capitalism and try to make it more “civil/professional” system
 
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Eddie121

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1) A very annoying feature of V2 (especially if you play China) was that factories can only be built one level at a time.
Provided we have enough funds, construction workers and construction materials, will we be able to build like 10 factory levels at a time?
Conversely, will it be possible to downgrade factories rather than dismantling them?

2) Will it be possible to let the capitalists build their own farms, mines and factories and select their own production methods?

3) Are all resources revealed up-front or is there a mechanism for prospecting coal, iron ore etc.

4) How strong is the scaling effect of prestige rank on badboy? Since there is no effect on technology spread, is it worth staying unrecognized to reduce badboy?

5) Do you have plans for letting steamships navigate on rivers to simulate the end of the Crimean War, the Opium wars, the ACW?
 
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grommile

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Since there is no effect on technology spread, is it worth staying unrecognized to reduce badboy?
Bear in mind that being unrecognized means that big rich countries take less infamy for bullying you.
 

Jamaican Castle

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Provided we have enough funds, construction workers and construction materials, will we be able to build like 10 factory levels at a time?
No, because factories are constructed (and paid for) over time rather than in an up-front payment. What you might be able to do is queue up the construction of a bunch of factory levels one after the other.

3) How strong is the scaling effect of prestige rank on badboy? Since there is no effect on technology spread, is it worth staying unrecognized to reduce badboy?
Doubtful. The lower your rank, the fewer moves you can make in diplomatic plays, so you'll be limited in how many claims you can press at once and how much you can influence whether other countries will take sides. If you're serious about conquering a lot of territory, having a recognized prestige rank will probably be important.
 
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Doubtful. The lower your rank, the fewer moves you can make in diplomatic plays, so you'll be limited in how many claims you can press at once and how much you can influence whether other countries will take sides. If you're serious about conquering a lot of territory, having a recognized prestige rank will probably be important.
Well, it sounds like badboy is the same old on/off mechanism. Once you reach 21 everybody will gang up on you. Which means you need to be a major land power with the world's most advanced military technology before crossing that threshold.
 
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Pass_West

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Regarding factory construction, afaik, you only build one level at a time, but they recently added an auto-expand feature. I presume this automatically raises the level of the factory once it hits full employment.
 

Eddie121

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1) A very annoying feature of V2 (especially if you play China) was that factories can only be built one level at a time.
Provided we have enough funds, construction workers and construction materials, will we be able to build like 10 factory levels at a time?
Conversely, will it be possible to downgrade factories rather than dismantling them?
Regarding factory construction, afaik, you only build one level at a time, but they recently added an auto-expand feature. I presume this automatically raises the level of the factory once it hits full employment.
So the same broken system than in V2, with some marginal QoL adjustments.
Looking forwards to some mods fixing the issue.
 
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So the same broken system than in V2, with some marginal QoL adjustments.
Looking forwards to some mods fixing the issue.
IMO, Victoria 2's main problem was the constant time (so at the times it was literally impossible to keep up with expanding workforce) and inability to queue multiple levels at the time (which was bother).

Victoria 3 doesn't have the first problem and second has not been confirmed either.