Not the military but engineers who loved their little gadgets and technological superior, yet too expensive solutions...otherwise, you're correct. It's still like that in many German companies...Colonel Warden said:
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WWIINERD said:I couldn't agree more!! I always ran obsolete armor and air units into the ground playing HOI. I never thought you were really rewarded for upgrading. I think HOI2 will have a better process for upgrading.
I hope that when you give a prioritized armor unit new tanks, that other tank units get some accellerating/expense-cutting bonus in their upgrade process.
In HoI2, you don't remove the unit that's upgrading at all - you allocate a global share of your resources to upgrading, and prioritise the units you want done first. I believe the unit can't actually be fighting while you're doing it, which is fair enough. There is no good reason not to upgrade in HoI 2 except if you need the ICs for something else, or the unit is needed in battle.
Nick
Why would you do that? A PzII with Arty Div costs 80 days times about 14-17 IC or so, depending on where you're upgrading to. A lot cheaper then taking the 220 days or so of building a Panther with Arty division.
..sorry, talking HOI1 here....
HOI is a game on the strategic level instead of the tactical so when you try to incorporate tactical level considerations like gun caliber then things become difficult. The best way to do this is by abstraction which I think HOI did rather well. Some things have to be fudged.
Even countries that produced similar caliber weapons had very different results due to barrel length and ammo type so getting all of them represented would be daunting. Giving a bonus to attack to represent advances in ammo technology was certainly the best way to go I think, and I hope in HOI2 that technology is abstracted in such a way to see measurable results on the battlefield --PZIIs ought not to be knocking out too many Matildas, if any, and I want to see that. I liked HOI-1 Tech tree but found it to be tedious and time-consuming. Often I found myself not building any new tanks until I had researched up to advanced medium tanks. It seemed that I could do just fine using early-era tanks until I could make the really good stuff. For the tactical side of WWII then Steel Panthers WWII is the game I play. It is a free download at http://linetap.com/www/drg/SPCamo-2.htm This is a tactical game which has all the calibers of pretty much every weapon used in WWII, going even so far as to represent the individual rifles and machine-guns used. Anyway, I look forward to getting HOI2 and hope there aren't too many bugs and needful patches.
Even countries that produced similar caliber weapons had very different results due to barrel length and ammo type so getting all of them represented would be daunting. Giving a bonus to attack to represent advances in ammo technology was certainly the best way to go I think, and I hope in HOI2 that technology is abstracted in such a way to see measurable results on the battlefield --PZIIs ought not to be knocking out too many Matildas, if any, and I want to see that. I liked HOI-1 Tech tree but found it to be tedious and time-consuming. Often I found myself not building any new tanks until I had researched up to advanced medium tanks. It seemed that I could do just fine using early-era tanks until I could make the really good stuff. For the tactical side of WWII then Steel Panthers WWII is the game I play. It is a free download at http://linetap.com/www/drg/SPCamo-2.htm This is a tactical game which has all the calibers of pretty much every weapon used in WWII, going even so far as to represent the individual rifles and machine-guns used. Anyway, I look forward to getting HOI2 and hope there aren't too many bugs and needful patches.
Cyril Hoogeboom said:
I can't remember. It's been a long time since I played HOI (with no patches-I had no idea Paradox made patches or that CORE existed)
I just remember thinking I was better off using older tank divisions for reserve defensive roles vs. upgrading. o
Colonel Warden said:
You can have that M4A1 any color you like, so long as it is green.
So how come the guys in the Panther's get all the women?
I would love to see a balance of the hoi techtree and the new hoiII strategic planning.
Tactical or not, it's great fun knowing soon you will be cranking out country specific (Germany) Tigers and Panthers...)
Tactical or not, it's great fun knowing soon you will be cranking out country specific (Germany) Tigers and Panthers...
)
As mentioned before, I doubt the caliber of a tankgun is really that big of a difference compared to ALL other parts in a Division.
But the most important fact is, that you won´t get real historical individuality no matter how many choices you open. In HOI I the legendary "88" never existed. It was the very same gun every nation was able to develop. Btw. not even able but forced to do, because there was no way around it, except for stopping research in that field maybe.
In HOI I a Sherman equaled a T-34, which all of us know to be nonsense. But this is not Close-Combat or Combat Mission. Tactics and individual unit strength count nothing. You say attack, your tankdivisions do attack. With slightly worse results maybe when you lack some techs, but you won´t breakthrough because of 20mm more caliber.
The whole thing is very abstract and by giving the units names and histocal data, HOI simply adds flavor, not realism.
------------------------------------------
And for all people out there, that generalize statements like a T-34 couldn´t be penetrated by 50mm guns. Please state the exact gun, ammo, range and angle towards the target. Otherwise the info is no good.
A 37mm ATG, as crappy as it was in 1941 could and did destroy T-34s, even frontal. Just had to let it come close enough, and THAT was the problem. No tank was invulnerable. In HOI terms this means higher losses, but still a chance to beat the enemy, as long as the numbers are favoring you.
But the most important fact is, that you won´t get real historical individuality no matter how many choices you open. In HOI I the legendary "88" never existed. It was the very same gun every nation was able to develop. Btw. not even able but forced to do, because there was no way around it, except for stopping research in that field maybe.
In HOI I a Sherman equaled a T-34, which all of us know to be nonsense. But this is not Close-Combat or Combat Mission. Tactics and individual unit strength count nothing. You say attack, your tankdivisions do attack. With slightly worse results maybe when you lack some techs, but you won´t breakthrough because of 20mm more caliber.
The whole thing is very abstract and by giving the units names and histocal data, HOI simply adds flavor, not realism.
------------------------------------------
And for all people out there, that generalize statements like a T-34 couldn´t be penetrated by 50mm guns. Please state the exact gun, ammo, range and angle towards the target. Otherwise the info is no good.
A 37mm ATG, as crappy as it was in 1941 could and did destroy T-34s, even frontal. Just had to let it come close enough, and THAT was the problem. No tank was invulnerable. In HOI terms this means higher losses, but still a chance to beat the enemy, as long as the numbers are favoring you.
Look, in reality, every nation had an equivalent to the '88.
The Germans just happened to be the only ones using it in anti-tank duty as well.
.
...looking through the land-doctrines I don't find any impact on unit stats besides IC, ORG & MOR...
...not want to start a historic discussion, but AFAIK different tanks had a strategic impact - e.g. during the GER approach on moscow the GER Pz.II & III and early Pz. IV weren't able to penetrate the SU KVI front armour while the KVI knocks most of them out with 1 or 2 hits - same thing later on the west front with late Pz. IV and Pz. V & VI against most US & UK tanks!
...so this should have some strategic impact from my point of view and there should be some techs available that give units more individual nation specific combat stats!
...but they should also have some mali (higher IC costs per unit and/or extra R&D time) and shouldn't be preset in the '36 campaign (maybe a nation decides to go an other R&D way in an alternate scenario)
...and I really liked some of the CORE-like techs:
- extra armour or more mobility
- better transmission/engines or the cheaper ones
- build in radios or not
- and so on...
...as these are more strategic decisions!
I don't think we need a tech for every gun-type like in HOi but some customization on a more strategical level would really be nice !
...at least in a CORE mod for HOI2
.
...looking through the land-doctrines I don't find any impact on unit stats besides IC, ORG & MOR...
...not want to start a historic discussion, but AFAIK different tanks had a strategic impact - e.g. during the GER approach on moscow the GER Pz.II & III and early Pz. IV weren't able to penetrate the SU KVI front armour while the KVI knocks most of them out with 1 or 2 hits - same thing later on the west front with late Pz. IV and Pz. V & VI against most US & UK tanks!
...so this should have some strategic impact from my point of view and there should be some techs available that give units more individual nation specific combat stats!
...but they should also have some mali (higher IC costs per unit and/or extra R&D time) and shouldn't be preset in the '36 campaign (maybe a nation decides to go an other R&D way in an alternate scenario)
...and I really liked some of the CORE-like techs:
- extra armour or more mobility
- better transmission/engines or the cheaper ones
- build in radios or not
- and so on...
...as these are more strategic decisions!
I don't think we need a tech for every gun-type like in HOi but some customization on a more strategical level would really be nice !
...at least in a CORE mod for HOI2
.
Kindjal said:
True... almost everyone had a 88mm/90mm/4-inch AA gun.
There's a big strategic difference in small incremental gun size improvements... one of Hitler's many tantrums was when he first saw a Pz IIIG with the 50mm/L42 gun... and complained that he'd ordered the longer 50mm/60 (which wasn't ready, and reduced the ammo load space).
Panzer III Production
1941 - 1673 (50mm/L42)
1942 - 251 (50mm/L42)
- 64 (50mm/L60)
- 450 (75mm/L24
total - 765
1943 - 1906 (50mm/L60)
- 213 (75mm/L24)
total - 2119
Panzer III production was reduced by between 900 and 1400 at one of the MOST crucial points of the war... what could you have used 3 or 4 extra Panzer Divisions for during the drive on the Caucasus and Stalingrad? How about shipping 2 Panzer Divisions to Rommel in July '42? Would he have won at El Alamein and pushed on thru Palastine to link up in the Caucasus?
.
@all interested in an improved tech tree mod:
started a project on this issue here:
http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=179818
but will certainly need support - especially from people who have experience in modding the tech tree!
...everyone is welcome !
.
@all interested in an improved tech tree mod:
started a project on this issue here:
http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=179818
but will certainly need support - especially from people who have experience in modding the tech tree!
...everyone is welcome !
.
(off) Nice to see, what is goin on in this thread
I know that a tank division strenght depence of many factors (what kind of and how many tanks, infantry and artillery division has)
BUT
If I build a (Pz IV) tank division example in 1939 and in 1945 this tank division has SAME stats.... (There was many gun & armour upgrades between 39-44) and when in HOI 2 are no upgrades avable, then its not very nice and its unreal!
Ok "HOI is a game on the strategic level", but there is a big diffrence, if my tank division have
in 1939 and also in 1945 5(att) & 4(def)
Dont tell me, that with some add on brigades & some doctrines will be the divison stronger.... crapp
I know that a tank division strenght depence of many factors (what kind of and how many tanks, infantry and artillery division has)
BUT
If I build a (Pz IV
) tank division example in 1939 and in 1945 this tank division has SAME stats.... (There was many gun & armour upgrades between 39-44) and when in HOI 2 are no upgrades avable, then its not very nice and its unreal! Ok "HOI is a game on the strategic level", but there is a big diffrence, if my tank division have
in 1939 and also in 1945 5(att) & 4(def)
Dont tell me, that with some add on brigades & some doctrines will be the divison stronger.... crapp
Sponge Bob said:Ok "HOI is a game on the strategic level", but there is a big diffrence, if my tank division have
in 1939 and also in 1945 5(att) & 4(def)
Dont tell me, that with some add on brigades & some doctrines will be the divison stronger.... crapp
While I'm a fan of the CORE style big tech tree, you can rest assured that as long as you continue to commit to tank and land doctrine research your armoured divisions will be getting more effective as the years go by in HOI2. The demo shows that much.
Tank divisions in general got more effective throughout the war, and it wasn't because of new model PIVs...
Compared to the simple changing of PIV models, the organization, raw experience, and effective combined arms environment saw a change that made armored divisions much more effective.
What's more useful to a strategic commander: some new PIVs or getting the existing tanks working with infantry well?
Compared to the simple changing of PIV models, the organization, raw experience, and effective combined arms environment saw a change that made armored divisions much more effective.
What's more useful to a strategic commander: some new PIVs or getting the existing tanks working with infantry well?