Oh, I expect you'll be able to mod it in. Or wait for a C.O.R.E. equivalent to do that for you! 
Steve.
Steve.
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
-StUkOv- said:
...what are you talking about ???!!! :rofl:
...don't confound a pentium III with a Pz III division !!! :rofl:
.
Don't worry. By the time you have memorised ALL the modifiers and can remember in your sleep the needed techs to build the proper units and perform a paradrop - it will no longer seem a classic RTS tech tree.SilverDragon 72 said:.
have to admit that I really like the very sophisticated CORE tech tree !
...but I understand that paradox has streamlined the tech tree - even if it looks like a classic RTS now
As you can see (but not use
) in the demo files, there are in the end seven different paths of land doctrines and three paths of naval doctrines. These choices not only determines the offensive/defensive capabilities of your units, but also their cost and that of several brigades.Gearing bonus. "Do I continue producing unit X, that I can produce quickly because I have churned out a lot of them in series already, with an eye to upgrading them gradually to the better unit Y after production as IC allows, or do I switch production to Y, which will take quite some time and many units produced before production gets into speed?". This can be one of the more challenging choices in the game - especially in multiplayer.
Part of your doctrinary and domestic policy sliders.
Part of your doctrinary choice.
If you really want that level of micromanagement that, to my mind, does not belong on the grand strategic level (as Stalin, I tell the damned engineers to design me a better tank - I don't tell them to research gears, a new gun, wider tracks, and a propeller beanie), you will have to mod the techtree. Fortunately, it is very easy to play around with techs (including the graphical representation) and/or add new units to the game.
As for units having the same basic stats instead of nation specific, that is perfect for me, as it means that the main distinction between units of the same type is on the grand strategic doctrinary level rather than "historically, country X produced tank Y which was superior to tank Z from country W"
Anyhow, I think Darkrenown already answered this by referring to Doctrines, Domestic Policy settings, and production choice - just slightly more terse.
frank2u said:
I've heard a lot of guesses about how Germany might have won the war if they'd done one thing or another, but this is the first time serial production of a single tank model has been suggested. I'd say it's an HoI-1 truth mistakenly applied to real life.
The reason you explore several models of tanks or planes is so you can find out what will work and what won't. Before the war a lot of smart people thought the Me110 would be a great escort fighter - oops - although experience showed ths model could be a decent night fighter, but you have to make it and use it to learn this.
I wish the stats for different models would change from game to game, so one game the P-51 would come out on top, in another the P-38. This way you'd have to explore different techs to see what would work instead of always driving for the sure thing that always works.
danoh said:
Hmmm.. based on the fact the Germans were able to put out the highest production in the winter 44/45, even when they produced nearly without any good materials...
So when they chanced in say '41 on only easy to build late PIV Production, and just built one of the best fighter they had at the moment, they cold massivly increased their production, the crews would only have to learn one tank/fighter etc.
That doesn't mean they should stop researching, but instead of actually trying their hand at 5 or more prototypes, and producing more or less of each, only to find out some are crap, did really ruined them. They were in no mean able to outproduce the Russians, but they had superior doctrines, and which say double the tanks they had irl, with air supority thanks to standardised fighters(1 day fighter, 1 night fighter, 1 escort fighter) they wouldn't had their cities bombed...
So I say the war would be winnable for the Germans with a good strategy which includes a chance in production strategy, I would say until autumn 1942. After Stalingrad I don't think they could win, but they could be able to make the war still a lot longer, maybe even get a peace treaty with the russians.
SilverDragon 72 said:DARK...who ?!! :rofl:
...sorry if I miss something - just skimmed a few posts
.
Bah
But Peter's just posted the same kind of thing, so just read his instead.
I was reworking a proposed CORE 1 armour tech tree that removed individual guns determining the power of a tank.
Individually, I read of the superiority of the T-26 compared to the PzKpfw.I during the Spanish Civil War, (French tanks compared to German tanks in 1940) but what was more important than the quality of tank, was how they were deployed.
You could have the best equipment in the world, but have it totally ineffective because it was deployed incorrectly. It really didn't matter how powerful your tank gun was, what mattered was how they were used.
This has been covered, but was one of the big things I hated about the HoI1 tech tree, that the difference between the top end and low end of a particular tank was phenominal. It was almost as if a German 1940 Panzer Division was half as strong as a French 1940 Armoured Division, when in reality the reverse was true (French divisions were too tank heavy, and were easily destroyed by combined arms).
I found HoI1 to be too specific, and a lot of the techs drastically overstated in power to justify their existence.
Individually, I read of the superiority of the T-26 compared to the PzKpfw.I during the Spanish Civil War, (French tanks compared to German tanks in 1940) but what was more important than the quality of tank, was how they were deployed.
You could have the best equipment in the world, but have it totally ineffective because it was deployed incorrectly. It really didn't matter how powerful your tank gun was, what mattered was how they were used.
This has been covered, but was one of the big things I hated about the HoI1 tech tree, that the difference between the top end and low end of a particular tank was phenominal. It was almost as if a German 1940 Panzer Division was half as strong as a French 1940 Armoured Division, when in reality the reverse was true (French divisions were too tank heavy, and were easily destroyed by combined arms).
I found HoI1 to be too specific, and a lot of the techs drastically overstated in power to justify their existence.
General Guisan said:
Of course in some abstract theoretical world it would be most efficient to just find one good model and mass produce it. This is exactly where a maximizing HoI player winds up. You'll save the most money by targeting the single fighter/naval bomber/tank etc. you need to win in 1938-1941 and then cranking out as many as you can. But it is a mistake to think this HoI lesson would have mattered much in real life.
Focusing on a single model is not a realistic expectation for historical Germany, or any of the combatants. Because armoured/air warfare was so new, they had to try out several models to figure out what worked. Sure if we timetravel back we'll design the T-34 and just build tons, but that's all hindsight.
In the actual event, few nations followed this strategy with tanks or planes. Two counterexamples would be the Spitfire and the Sherman. But even then the Brits were still building other fighers, especially for nightfighting, and the U.S. continued to crank out light tanks, etc. Even today the U.S. has at least 5 distinct fighter models including the British Harrier technology used by the Marines.
When you produce B-24s, B-17s and later B-29s all at the same time, each model teaches you lessons that make them all better. Since this was the rule for every country in the war, it just doesn't make sense to talk about streamlining to a single model, at least for this timeperiod.
More importantly, I've never read any historian who describes Germany's production of multiple tank/plane models as "ruinous" or in any way decisive. I've heard sound critiques of the inefficiency of having Luftwaffe/Waffen SS formations instead of making it all Wehrmacht, or of how the Me-262 could have been produced sooner. "Ruinous" was attacking Russia instead of Gibraltar and Suez. Multiple models were inefficient, but not decisively so, and in fact seem to still be a necessary expense.
Sponge Bob said:Hooray
Ok but Pz IV..... it is big difference, do you have early Pz IVC or late Pz IVF2. I realy dont like this "simple" system".
I hope, that some patch will fix this problem and we can upgrade our panzer divisons
Yes I think you will be able to upgrade in the first release as well... The only real simplified thing is the tech tree I guess, so you wont be able to design your own custom tank model, like choosing your calibre and stuff like that. I think that it was one of the cool but unimportant features of HOI1. However there are still brigade attachments... I've seen in the demo som divisions have a StuG attached. (might also represent battalions)
PzKfw IV (C and D) were close support tanks, and hopefully in HOI2 can also be modded as attachement to some motorized inf divisions, since I assume its possible to mod names and stats of these "brigade attachments". They should not form seperate panzerdivisions, but maybe the The IVH which was a decent tank, could even form own divisions as an alternate history ?
PzKfw III were one of the most massproduced tanks of WW2 and toghether with the light tank II they provided the bulkhead of the armoured arsenal when the Barbarossa was launched. The PzKfw II (20mm ) were not effective against enemy tanks and used as recon battalions among other roles, so it might be possible to mod as a "recon" attachment that provides some intelligence stats. I sure hope HOI2 will be very moddable, but I will not hope for custom gun calibres since it's not really an important feature. I hope all the historical gun calibres will be depicted as blueprints for the tech tree though.
Last edited:
Two things:
When the light armor division techs are all researched and basic armor division tech research is completed, does a light armor division upgrade to a medium armor division or does it stay light for the rest of the game?
is there a possibility to make your own new brigades? instead of modding existing ones?
When the light armor division techs are all researched and basic armor division tech research is completed, does a light armor division upgrade to a medium armor division or does it stay light for the rest of the game?
is there a possibility to make your own new brigades? instead of modding existing ones?
All this talk of concentrating on just one model completely ignores the nature of Capitalism.
One popular (ecomonic) definition of Fascism runs like this ...
"Running the state for the benefit of big business"
By that definition the country in which I live is most certainly Fascist as are most of the so called "Free Market Capitalist" countries.
There is absolutely no way that Hitler could have awarded major contracts to say, Heinkel, whilst leaving Junkers in the cold. The country consisted of a complete mish-mash of competing interests each of which had to be placated and typically one was played off against another.
The single minded concentration of production being referred to here might have been possible in the Soviet Union but it was not possible in either Germany or Italy.
Paradoxically (pun?) both Britain and the USA had far more success in running a soviet style command economy that the Axis. (That's not to suggest that the merchants of death didn't get very fat indeed.)
One popular (ecomonic) definition of Fascism runs like this ...
"Running the state for the benefit of big business"
By that definition the country in which I live is most certainly Fascist as are most of the so called "Free Market Capitalist" countries.
There is absolutely no way that Hitler could have awarded major contracts to say, Heinkel, whilst leaving Junkers in the cold. The country consisted of a complete mish-mash of competing interests each of which had to be placated and typically one was played off against another.
The single minded concentration of production being referred to here might have been possible in the Soviet Union but it was not possible in either Germany or Italy.
Paradoxically (pun?) both Britain and the USA had far more success in running a soviet style command economy that the Axis. (That's not to suggest that the merchants of death didn't get very fat indeed.)
I'm just looking forward to the fantastic CORE mod which will eventually grow out of HOI2, with all sorts of very specific techs, units, brigades, etc. CORE is a beautiful thing. (*sheds a tear*)
DoctorPlague said:
The PzKfw III was not one of the most produced. It was not even the most produced tank by Germany (Pz IV was).
I have seen an number of historians claiming that Germany wasted a lot of resources (primarily R&D effort) by pursuing the King Tiger and the Maus when there was no need to. Also, Guderian was not happy with the Stugs. He believed that they consumed resources, particualarly drive trains, needed for the Panzers.
Now I checked it out and you were right, they produced a whole lot of the Pz IV H and J, approx 3800. This one had a long antitank gun and improved overall armour incl. belt skirts. They also had many of those earlier massproduced tanks I mentioned converted into SP artillery and ammunition carriers as they were made obsolete.
When you disband a unit you should not destroy it, but you decommision it getting manpower back like in HOI1, but what about the tanks? I hope that in HOI2 you will be able to get those resources into the attachment pool when you disband your obsolete tank divisions, or at least get the steel back.
When you disband a unit you should not destroy it, but you decommision it getting manpower back like in HOI1, but what about the tanks? I hope that in HOI2 you will be able to get those resources into the attachment pool when you disband your obsolete tank divisions, or at least get the steel back.
Try Why the Allies Won by Richard Overy. Some details:danoh said:
* At one point the Germans had 425 different models of aircraft in production. By the middle of the war the army was equipped with 152 different makes of lorry and 150 different motor cycles.
* the VW Wolfsburg plant was designed for mass-production on a grand scale - up to 1.5M cars per year. It had the largest metal press in the world. Only 20% of this plant was ever used for war production - items such as camp stoves and army-issue footwarmers.
* Hitler became aware of the problem and issued a Fuhrer decree in Dec 41 on 'Simplification and Increased Efficiency in Armaments Production'. It took the appointment of architect Speer to shake up the system but by then it was too late - the strategic bombing campaign prevented the full benefits of mass-production by forcing dispersal of production.
The esential problem was that the military were in charge of the system and they were lousy production planners. The Allies had guys like Beaverbrook and Kaiser in charge of production - businessmen who knew how to crank out millions of whatever was needed. The Soviets had party planners who were obsessed by output figures and cared less about perfect quality and refinement.
Porsche vs Ford sums it up.
Andrew
DoctorPlague said:
I couldn't agree more!! I always ran obsolete armor and air units into the ground playing HOI. I never thought you were really rewarded for upgrading. I think HOI2 will have a better process for upgrading.
I hope that when you give a prioritized armor unit new tanks, that other tank units get some accellerating/expense-cutting bonus in their upgrade process.
Colonel Warden said:
Thanks for the reading tip, I'll check that out. However, at first glance I am skeptical of the figures.
There certainly were inefficiencies in German production, and the U.S. and Russia did an outstanding job of producing tanks and planes in numbers the Germany couldn't imagine.
However, German production was efficienct enough to win. Germany had all the tools it needed in 1939-1941 to win, but fortunately for the world it's knucklehead leadership botched the job. It was strategic decisions like not vigorously pursing success in the air war over Britain, or invading Russia before securing the Med., that cost Germany the war. After Dec. 1941 German production decisions become irrelevant because regardless it had no chance of keeping up with the United States.
Colonel Warden said:
Another problem was that the nazi leadership was obsessed with the grandiose projects like their cumbersome superheavy tanks, some of which were never produced and some of which featured a unaccepable breakdown rate and were simply too heavy to be used as an offensive weapon, such as the Königstiger. (they were good ambush tank killers though)
Also they had put many resources into development of jet fighters who were quite powerful but demanded super skilled pilots. Me262 which is one of my favourites, suffered quite many accidents esp. during landings. At that point Germany had lost many good pilots and should have planes that were easy to train new pilots to fly. RAF did that with great success.
For the sake of the Soviets, their tankers also needed high skills but many infantrymen became tankers through fast training. The story behind the T34 is quite astonishing because it started out as a quite lousy... It was not easy driven and in the beginning in 1940 when it was commisioned it also suffered severe mechanical problems and its turret was not big enough to carry a decent gun. Overall I believe it was better than the German arsenal at that time. Soviet regarded their tankers high who were so skilled and managed to drive this tank into battle despite these facts.
Even though its potential was very high some Soviet officials were at that point talking about scrapping the whole T34 project! These weaknesses were also being pointed out by american officers who did an analysis of the T34, and this tank were upgraded several times with better turret and bigger gun and later it was known as the best tank of the war. However, not everbody agree on that statement. I think HOI2 should have upgrades for the gun and turret of the T34 through 41 to 44 , since that was elementary to its success in the anti tank role.
Last edited:
Colonel Warden said:
This is what I meant earlier when I said the trouble with Germany was too many varients