Push button - get reward (again).

[Mortheim]

I want to come back to this with recent dev diary. It is, again, the same design approach, which doesn't really improve gameplay: "push the button - get reward". Yes, of course, you must match certain requirements, but they doesn't require you to think or to plan a lot.

Spoiler: !NOTICE!

I don't think that this design approach is bad per se. But it is bland and, atm, is overused.
Anyway, i will buy Dharma, because I support PDX and think that they are doing great job.

In the last DD you can improve some CoTs so they will not only give you more Trade Power, but, also, buff the area. It is pretty nice idea, until we see how it is implemented - you need to spend gold. Yap. Building strong and stable trade routes? Nope. Protecting your trade fleets and undermining your rivals trade efforts? Nope. Push button and get upgrade? Yap.

This doesn't really makers trade interesting. You don't need to plan, to devote yourself, to understand core mechanics and to get control of some juicy land (though it might help you to get more 3rd level CoTs). Nor does your trading estate affects them. There are tons of missing opportunities for such a good idea. Build chains of trade to get better cots! Protect trade, so most of your goods will go where you want them! Support merchant class and Trade Companies, so they will help you back! Plan, trade, protect, improve. And the number of 3rd level CoTs should be limited (at least per country or per continent).


But, instead, you just need to press button and spend some ducats. It is too bland. What do you think?

 

[wielkiciensteam]

I agree wholeheartedly with your post.

 

[Piotrzeci]

It's not like we don't have marketplaces. If you invest money into centers of trade, then it is because you want more money from trade and for that you need to do it in reasonable places. You don't spend ducats on making something, that isn't worth it and if increasing trade power is... then you simply already meet the criteria of

Building strong and stable trade routes? Nope. Protecting your trade fleets and undermining your rivals trade efforts?

And other bonuses come into play only with level 3s which are limited.

 

[Strigoi Tyrannus]

Building strong and stable trade routes? Nope. Protecting your trade fleets and undermining your rivals trade efforts? Nope. Push button and get upgrade? Yap.

This doesn't really makers trade interesting. You don't need to plan, to devote yourself, to understand core mechanics and to get control of some juicy land (though it might help you to get more 3rd level CoTs). Nor does your trading estate affects them. There are tons of missing opportunities for such a good idea. Build chains of trade to get better cots! Protect trade, so most of your goods will go where you want them! Support merchant class and Trade Companies, so they will help you back! Plan, trade, protect, improve. And the number of 3rd level CoTs should be limited (at least per country or per continent).

Basically all of those things you mentioned are already represented in the game in someway (trade flow, trade power from ships, disrupting enemy trade, merchant estate, interacting with trade companies). Also, the number of 3 lvl CoTs will be limited by the amount of merchants you have so that is also covered. It is true though that those mechanics and the interaction between them could be expanded.

 

[aono]

*scratching in the back of own head*
Hell. I'm sure, I'm definitely sure I saw this discussion somewhen.
Aha! Got it! It the same thing that spending monarch power on development in 2015!

 

[Mortheim]

It's not like we don't have marketplaces. If you invest money into centers of trade, then it is because you want more money from trade and for that you need to do it in reasonable places. You don't spend ducats on making something, that isn't worth it and if increasing trade power is... then you simply already meet the criteria of

There is no dependency. You can upgrade your CoT even if it is in a pretty weak trade node. Just for the sake of getting bonus for area. No need to build reliable and rich route to improve your CoT.

Also, the number of 3 lvl CoTs will be limited by the amount of merchants you have so that is also covered.

True. Though it still a lot (basically 2 per country without ideas, colonial nations and trade companies).

Aha! Got it! It the same thing that spending monarch power on development in 2015!

There is no good alternative for them. And, tbh, won't be soon. They are resource which represents something and provides some understandable mechanic. You invest efforts into developing or coring or technologies. Good representation.
And for this new mechanic there are options (same goes for principality mechanics).

 

[Yxklyx]

Just reading the dev diaries now... Yes, this one is a button/reward thing but there are other things in the release that aren't. I think the money you spend for these should go to a neighboring country - so that would add a little more thought to it. It might also create a truce with them or maybe increase their institution spread.

 

[Piotrzeci]

There is no dependency. You can upgrade your CoT even if it is in a pretty weak trade node. Just for the sake of getting bonus for area. No need to build reliable and rich route to improve your CoT.

So you will spend 1200 ducats for no reason? If you have this money, then you already have good trade. Sure you don't need to be a Colonial Empire or a Merchant Republic to do that, but if you want to spend so much money on upgrades to trade value, then you are not an empire that doesn't care about the income from it.
And the bonuses to the area... are not really, that huge to upgrade it for them only.

 

[Razzor]

I really like the idea of different lvl CoT and I like the shifting level after conquering it. But I dont understand why it has to go down through diplo Annexation? It gets peacfully integrated why would it disrupt a City to lose buildings. And the upgrading should only be able through events which get triggerd under certain circumstances like spawning colonialism/global trade. Or there is a check every 10 years in Nodes with X amount of ducats more than before to pick a CoT to lift it to the next tier. The world would feel much more alive. Instead you just push a button which you can afford if you are already rich so why not just take that money buy mercs and conquer the rest of the trade node so there is no competition left. Seems like 1000 ducats better invested for my additional trade power.
Sure the other bonuses are nice but do you really need them. Like who was ever missing a building slot? If its a good province it has enoug development to unlock enough slots for the good buildings if not why would you build buildings there?.

 

[Darth.]

I agree fully with the OP. But Paradox wants to provide instant gratification to its players because most of its player base are casuals rather than min-maxers and hardcore RP players. And I agree with that too. It's just common business sense. It would also make EU4 far more complicated and leave stuff like trade and development upto luck.

That being said, implementing a system of dynamic development while keeping the current development method by button would solve both issues. It allows you, the government, to invest in developing a province, and also accounts for natural development by the passage of time.

 

[Piotrzeci]

Like who was ever missing a building slot? If its a good province it has enoug development to unlock enough slots for the good buildings if not why would you build buildings there?.

I often find myself unable to build Docks and Shipyards in my lands, because Cathedral+Manufacture+Trade building+Workshop take 4 slots already.

 

[Razzor]

I often find myself unable to build Docks and Shipyards in my lands, because Cathedral+Manufacture+Trade building+Workshop take 4 slots already.

Fair point I dont think I was ever building a Dock or a Shipyard.

 

[Maldazar]

I agree as well. Would prefer to see the tradeposts slowly upgrading when you have prosperity in the region combined with a node that has a lot of trade going through it and that the owner controls a big part of the trade. This would feel 'real'. A tradeport of an empire/country that has all those variables should be increasing. While high devastation, lower trade power or low trade value in (or through) a node should make that tradeport 'lose' size.

 

[aono]

There is no good alternative for them. And, tbh, won't be soon.

I believed raising development should be represented by gold spends then, and even hardly believe this now.

 

[Hootieleece]

I also love how Level 3 COT's are only enabled if you buy the DLC otherwise all COT's are level 2!

 

[Yxklyx]

It seems like this change will make it much harder to monopolize a trade node - which is a good thing especially since money from trade has grown so much with recent changes. It used to be you just captured the two or three key provinces and then you get to control most of trade.

 

[Tom D.]

Not really related but I don't get why Paradox made upgrading or downgrading CoT a DLC feature in the first place - basically, if you're playing in a non-ironman game you can just edit the save, take away the money and upgrade the lvl and you have the same thing only in a more tedious way, without the DLC. I can get they want features for their DLC but this feels a bit of a weird one to choose for, at least things like governments or Estates, or everything else is something you can actually call a feature but not this IMO. It's a bit like renaming CN's, a DLC feature but for no real reason. At least that's what I think of it.

 

[DDRJake]

I also love how Level 3 COT's are only enabled if you buy the DLC otherwise all COT's are level 2!

Even without Dharma, the CoTs across the world are of different levels. For example, Venice is level 3, Lyonnais is level 2 and Cork is level 1

 

[cristofolmc]

It would be nice to make them interact with the newly integrated estates if you needed to have burghers in the city to upgrade it (unless its the capital). It makes only sense. You can't have a trade center without...traders. That would add another layer of depth since you'd have to weigh in if its worth it or your estates get too powerful.

It would also be nice if they depended on the number of trade nodes youre pulling trade from as the OP said. To upgrade it to level 2, you'd need 4. To upgrade it to level 3, youd need 6 (or maybe 3 and 5 I don't know).

Just something so it doesn't depend only on something that isnt an issue in the game, which is money. But instead it depends on something you hve to think about and prepare and have a strategy about it.

Its a good first step but it can definitely do with depth and some strategy to it. And in the future I'd love if not only could you upgrade them, but also destroy them and create them, move them around. Again, it couldn't be like with a click. It would have to be dependant on your country and provinces fundamentals, more like Meiou and Taxes. @DDRJake @Groogy

 

[Razzor]

I dont think moving ToC around is a good idea. I mean the whole point is that some provinces are worth more than others (even with less dev) because of the centers.
I love however the idea that only centers in provinces with the burghers can grow. I mean that would mean that in territories where I as the country have less influence am not able to boost my trade power as much as in stated land.