Purging STILL not fixed, even in 2.0.2

[Pootimus]

I mostly play Purging playstyles and from my testing, Devouring and exterminating purge types STILL don't work properly.
Main problems:

-Bonus generation DOES NOT work (no society research is produced by devouring swarm processing, and no unity is produced by extermination purging by fanatical purifiers)

-Devouring populations does not produce food, unless you build 3+ strongholds, or move maximum 2-3 pops to other planets to spread out the unrest. From what I can tell, devouring processing has used copy/pasted code from slavery, which is completely ridiculous. Processing production is currently based on the unrest of the planet and pop happiness. If these pops were being forced to work (like slavery) I would understand the requirement for unrest reduction, however the pops are being processed for food, their happiness/unrest shouldn't play any part in the food they provide because they aren't PRODUCING anything, they themselves are the resource that are being eaten. What makes this even worse is these civics don't have unrest reduction mechanics, so it's not like anythning can be done other than investing 1000 minerals to be able to get food from the pops, and that's only at 40% efficiency. Even if you have to relocate the pops, you're talking about thousands of energy, just to make use of it.
This needs to be changed and their food production needs to be a flat amount per pop, otherwise it's just way too much work and trouble to get the resources from these pops, you might as well just exterminate them and not use them for food at all and simply build farms on your planets instead. It's far cheaper, and far less hastle.

Some of the changes in 2.0.2 have been excellent though, like the removal of requiring "neighbour" status to declare war, and the changing of the WE scaling. Praise due where praise is deserved. But please, fix purging PROPERLY. This was supposed to be fixed in 2.0.1.

 

[Anschau]

Is this true?

 

[CrowScape]

-Devouring populations does not produce food, unless you build 3+ strongholds, or move maximum 2-3 pops to other planets to spread out the unrest.

I like the number of posts that treat this as some kind of revelation when it's been how processing has always worked.

Even if you have to relocate the pops, you're talking about thousands of energy, just to make use of it.

Or zero. Zero energy to move pops. FPs can take corvee system + ascension perk, while DSes have a 50% reduction by default + ascension perk. Zero energy.

 

[Pootimus]

I like the number of posts that treat this as some kind of revelation when it's been how processing has always worked.

Or zero. Zero energy to move pops. FPs can take corvee system + ascension perk, while DSes have a 50% reduction by default + ascension perk. Zero energy.

Sure you COULD do that, but doing that means you lose an extra civic. Also I didn't even bring up that having to move around your pops means there will be tiles on your other planets which are completely useless and you can't develop (since they will be placeholders for processing pops.) And I'll repeat what I said. Doing this is extremely time consuming and frustrating. Having to play musical chairs with potentially HUNDREDS of pops and finding space for all of them on your planets is ridiculous.
Also, that isn't how it used to work btw. When you harvested pops, you still got the bonus straight away in 1.9

Now with the removal of diplomacy, and with this current system of basic mechanics of purging not giving resources (like unity/society research/food) these playstyles are seriously gimped. They are playable, but with MASSIVE disadvantage to the point where they are far weaker than other civics, due to broken game design.

There is no excuse for things like society research and unity bonus to not work AT ALL, as this is one of the core attractions of playing Purging types.

 

[Pootimus]

Is this true?

Yep

Take note of the society research, food production, and date in each of these screenshots

Before invasion and purging
https://prnt.sc/ilntfq

After invasion and Purging
https://prnt.sc/ilnswg

Not only do they give no food, they actually COST me food. So I'm actually feeding the pops that I'm supposed to be killing and turning into food. Yet more proof the code is simply treating them like slaves producing a resource, rather than the pops being a resource themselves.
You can see my society output before and after doesn't change. The tooltip for Devouring Swarm specifically says purging pops is supposed to give you society research.

 

[CrowScape]

Sure you COULD do that, but doing that means you lose an extra civic.

You mean you have to make choices that have meaningful impact? Horror!

Also I didn't even bring up that having to move around your pops means there will be tiles on your other planets which are completely useless and you can't develop (since they will be placeholders for processing pops.)

This would be so terrible if planets didn't have a negligible impact on your tech level. It does hurt unity, but then again, the buildings that you're using to manage this unrest produce unity. Horror!

And I'll repeat what I said. Doing this is extremely time consuming and frustrating. Having to play musical chairs with potentially HUNDREDS of pops and finding space for all of them on your planets is ridiculous.

Here's the musical chairs that I did in 1.9 that is modestly more involved in 2.0.2.

Horror.

Also, that isn't how it used to work btw. When you harvested pops, you still got the bonus straight away in 1.9

No. Processing was ALWAYS affected by unrest, going up to the full -100% modifier. You didn't notice before because unrest was trivial to control before. The only thing that has changed is that unrest is actually something you have to work at. Horror!

Now with the removal of diplomacy, and with this current system of basic mechanics of purging not giving resources (like unity/society research/food) these playstyles are seriously gimped. They are playable, but with MASSIVE disadvantage to the point where they are far weaker than other civics, due to broken game design.

Oh no. No no no no no no no. If unrest was no longer a factor in processing, I would steam roll a large galaxy in fifty years by accident. This is literally the only thing preventing me from eating everything right at the beginning. I'm even rethinking my position on the unstated penalties to unity generation for DSes, 'cause I don't think they need them. FPs, DSs, and I guess DEs don't need influence, they claim conquered systems immediately, and there is no more forced status quo. They need something to make them want to stop.

 

[Madbadger]

I like the number of posts that treat this as some kind of revelation when it's been how processing has always worked.

It sure isn't for chemical processing for machine empires--happiness never had any direct effect on processing production, and more importantly, the assault armies you needed to take the planet in the first place used to be able to reduce unrest, eliminating the penalties. Now they don't. 12 assault armies (my usual early game stack) formerly reduced unrest by 120, which was usually enough. Now they don't help at all.

Processing is hosed because they took away the main way of reducing the unrest

 

[CrowScape]

Processing is hosed because they took away the main way of reducing the unrest

Processing is not hosed. Your old and busted way of managing processing is hosed because Paradox finally made unrest relevant.

Why are you even giving your enemies hope that they can save their population by leaving them in place instead of taking them deep into your empire? Are you charitable exterminators? Sporting purgers?

 

[Madbadger]

Processing is not hosed. Your old and busted way of managing processing is hosed because Paradox finally made unrest relevant.

It is. I don't care whether you think something was 'old and busted'; you implied nothing had changed. And more importantly, nothing in the patch notes indicated that the unrest reduction from assault armies garrisoning a planet had been removed, and the tooltip for unrest still claims that garrisoning armies reduce unrest. If this was an intentional change, it should be in the patch notes, and they should change the tooltip.

 

[Pootimus]

You mean you have to make choices that have meaningful impact? Horror!

You mean you don't care if a civic get's completely nerfed and becomes unplayable? Horror!

This would be so terrible if planets didn't have a negligible impact on your tech level. It does hurt unity, but then again, the buildings that you're using to manage this unrest produce unity. Horror!

It would be so terrible if your argument wasn't a strawman that completely ignores the fact that having to build FOUR strongholds to get 40% of your original processing output is ridiculous. Horror!

No. Processing was ALWAYS affected by unrest, going up to the full -100% modifier. You didn't notice before because unrest was trivial to control before. The only thing that has changed is that unrest is actually something you have to work at. Horror!

So instead of balancing the system, they completely overlooked the fact that the unrest penalty is completely overbearing vs the swarm in particular since they don't get unrest mitigation edicts. It would suck for you if purgers weren't completely useless? Horror!

Oh no. No no no no no no no. If unrest was no longer a factor in processing, I would steam roll a large galaxy in fifty years by accident. This is literally the only thing preventing me from eating everything right at the beginning. I'm even rethinking my position on the unstated penalties to unity generation for DSes, 'cause I don't think they need them. FPs, DSs, and I guess DEs don't need influence, they claim conquered systems immediately, and there is no more forced status quo. They need something to make them want to stop.

Sorry, I don't play on easy AI with no advanced starts, so unlike you, when playing purgers, I have to deal with the entire galaxy forming federations and pacts to focus down my empire since purgers no longer get to partake in diplomacy. E.g they can't use marauders, trade resources to npc stations, or drum up allies against your opponents. E.g a MASSIVE nerf. They offset a bit of it via the extra bonuses and war casus belli that purgers get, buit they FORGOT to balance unrest and processing in the new system to compensate. The thing that makes them want to stop, which you have never noticed, is that pretty much the entire galaxy is against you, and waging eternal war hurts your economy, research, and happiness.
You're also completely ignoring the fact that the whole mechanical point of purging is to gain food/unity/society research depending on your civic. Take those away (which is currently the case) and that civic's only use is for the casus belli. You lose all the bonuses of your civic, that other civics actually get to use. But you clealy don't understand game balance, and it seems you need to read up on it.... Horror!

 

[CrowScape]

It is. I don't care whether you think something was 'old and busted'; you implied nothing had changed.

I somehow implied that nothing had changed between patch 1.9 and 2.0.2? Is it common practice for game developers to increment version numbers just for the hell of it?

What a stupid thing to say. Especially when there is this:

No. Processing was ALWAYS affected by unrest, going up to the full -100% modifier. You didn't notice before because unrest was trivial to control before. The only thing that has changed is that unrest is actually something you have to work at. Horror!

And more importantly, nothing in the patch notes indicated that the unrest reduction from assault armies garrisoning a planet had been removed, and the tooltip for unrest still claims that garrisoning armies reduce unrest. If this was an intentional change, it should be in the patch notes, and they should change the tooltip.

It was an intentional change as anyone who was paying attention knows:

One more important change related to Defense Armies is a change to Unrest: Armies on planets no longer reduce Unrest directly. Instead, to handle a planet with high Unrest, you will need to construct Fortress-style buildings or take other measures (such as using Edicts) to reduce the planetary Unrest. This means you cannot simply capture a planet and then spam a dozen defense armies to immediately zero out the Unrest. As part of this, we will be balancing certain events and effect to ensure newly captured worlds do not instantly defect back to their former owner.

Now, if you want to say that the UI is not correct, that's one thing. But saying processing is not working is not true. It's working as it always has. As I said before you posted here, it's unrest that changed., and we had lots of warning that unrest was being changed.

 

[CrowScape]

You mean you don't care if a civic get's completely nerfed and becomes unplayable? Horror!

Yes. Corvee system was nerfed when they changed the cost from influence to energy: now you can play without it.

It would be so terrible if your argument wasn't a strawman that completely ignores the fact that having to build FOUR strongholds to get 40% of your original processing output is ridiculous. Horror!

Or you could just take Waste Processing and get 50% of your original processing without building any. Horror!

So instead of balancing the system, they completely overlooked the fact that the unrest penalty is completely overbearing vs the swarm in particular since they don't get unrest mitigation edicts. It would suck for you if purgers weren't completely useless? Horror!

It's not overbearing. Your incompetence may be overbearing, but that's not the mechanic's fault.

And it's funny, but 80% of my games are as a DS.

Sorry, I don't play on easy AI with no advanced starts, so unlike you, when playing purgers, I have to deal with the entire galaxy forming federations and pacts to focus down my empire since purgers no longer get to partake in diplomacy.

Obviously another change in 2.0.2. Those purgers were always diplomatic masters before.

E.g they can't use marauders, trade resources to npc stations, or drum up allies against your opponents. E.g a MASSIVE nerf. They offset a bit of it via the extra bonuses and war casus belli that purgers get, buit they FORGOT to balance unrest and processing in the new system to compensate.

OK, this is where I just stop, because you obviously haven't played any purging race since before 2.0.2 as you're talking about not being able to trade resources as a recent nerf.

Your troll is well played, sir. Well played.

 

[Warper]

Devs, please fix puring. Manually having to relocate each purged pop is insane.

 

[Pootimus]

OK, this is where I just stop, because you obviously haven't played any purging race since before 2.0.2 as you're talking about not being able to trade resources as a recent nerf.

Which shows how little you know about the game mechanics and why you have the misconception that purgers aren't seriously nerfed right now. You've always been able to trade with the npc stations (dumping 2k energy for 1k minerals) etc.

And on top of that you STILL haven't addressed the valid point that purging doesn't provide unity or society research, as it SHOULD. Yet more proof you have no idea what you're talking about.

Your troll is well played, sir. Well played.

In fact, I would congratulate you on YOUR troll. Very well-refined trolling you have there, I must say.

 

[Meuh]

Exact same problem here. No food bonus, even worse I'm loosing food (unhappiness ?). No research bonus. This kinda breaks the snowball you supposed to have with devouring swarm.

Please fix it !

 

[ShaTiK]

Not to disagree - just to add. Just recently (on latest 2.0.2 beta patch) I finished my first hive-mind game. Took a species without any special bonuses (to make further gene modding easier), large galaxy, no advanced starts.
By 2330 I gobbled up half of the galaxy, had around 1k naval cap, 4 fleets of 40k each, capped energy and minerals, as well as some nice stockpile in sector 'inventories'. Could've went for FE to get their research - didn't just cause I got bored. My point is - the ability to take stuff for free (in terms of influence) is huge. When I play the normal empires - I have around 5 influence a month. Factions are not kind to me, and rivalries have a tendency to fall off (hey eclipse mechanic from EU4, you would be welcome here) - so all and all I float around 5 per month for the most part of the game. And I have to use it to claim stuff from enemies, claim free stuff from space, and sometimes even engage in sad bidding game with war allies. With swarm I was getting around 4, but had to spend it only to claim stuff that nobody owned. Past a certain point you need just to wait for your neighbors to take stuff, as much as possible in fact: they will be spending their influence to build outposts. And you will get all their stuff for free during the war - even starbases go to you during war, something no other empire can do.
Now, granted, the problem with purged pops is a big one. I had to play quite tedious micromanagement game - you need to have no more than 5 purged pops on a single planet. So I shuffled them - every time I took a planet, I started relocating pops. With some ethics exchanging 2 pops is 25 energy and sending you original pop on a free slot (again, with bonus) is actually free - so not a problem in terms of expenses. Not like before 2.0 - when you spent influence to move people around. This got old pretty fast, but my population skyrocketed on all this free food - as it should with purging swarm-like species.
I 'finished' the game just because it got boring. What I want to say - from my (quite limited experience) swarm might be actually a bit OP in regards of taking stuff from enemies. But at the same time broken if you want to automate stuff - like give a conquered planet to a sector and forget about it, like you would in many other scenarios.