Purge Tolerance and Information Quarantine Edict

[Sinister2202]

My glorious empire fragmented and died like the Roman Empire, all because I decided to purge aliens and didn't pay attention to factions... But it's strange because my pops are conformists, so there's negative ethics diversion everywhere, even in sectors.

My ethics are: Xenophobe, militarist, and individualist. For some reason, I had assumed that xenophobe ethics covered tolerance for purge, but turns out it was only xeno-slavery.

Don't you guys think we need tolerance for purge? I thought it was already in the game. I had assumed it was, because to me, it was logical. If it WAS in the game, what's the reason for removal?

It makes sense that xenophobe individualists hate slavery on themselves, but tolerate slavery of aliens, and there's even policy for that (xeno, regulated xeno..etc). Purge already has policy like that too (prohibited, xeno only, outlawed), and even my primary species have no problem whatsoever of allowing purge of the xenos (otherwise the tooltip would've told me at least 600 pops would be against it).

Anyways, so I was thinking about information quarantine edict, a very dull edict not even worth spending influence. All the solutions it gives can easily be solved without using it. In fact, I think all edicts are dull except for grand armada and some you discover along the way. And no, I'm not talking about planetary edicts. They are very useful, but not the empire-wide edicts most of the time. Why can't we have planetary information quarantine and just purge the hell out of the aliens and not tell anyone else about it? Quarantining information could be about preventing ethics divergence, but I wish it was something more than that... but oh well that's just my personal opinion.

 

[Elfwind]

Also need xeno resettlement policy for xenophobe individualists.

 

[Sinister2202]

Also need xeno resettlement policy for xenophobe individualists.

Speaking of which, we also need to be able to evict aliens from our worlds. Pack them into ships, have them become space nomads. Allow xenophile aliens to accept them at their request... etc.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

Speaking of which, we also need to be able to evict aliens from our worlds. Pack them into ships, have them become space nomads. Allow xenophile aliens to accept them at their request... etc.

In Banks one of the purging types is displacement which is exactly what you're describing, the pops in question are kicked out and they go to either willing polities or settle uncolonized planets.

Don't you guys think we need tolerance for purge? I thought it was already in the game. I had assumed it was, because to me, it was logical. If it WAS in the game, what's the reason for removal?

I don't know if its ever been in the game but logically it should be.

Anyways, so I was thinking about information quarantine edict, a very dull edict not even worth spending influence

Eh, it has its purpose.

All the solutions it gives can easily be solved without using it

The point of the edicts is that they offer bonuses at the expense of influence, they aren't supposed to be game changing just useful.

Why can't we have planetary information quarantine and just purge the hell out of the aliens and not tell anyone else about it?

This might work, I wouldn't be opposed to it.

Quarantining information could be about preventing ethics divergence, but I wish it was something more than that

Maybe, personally I don't really mind how it is now but if they expanded it I wouldn't mind.

 

[garbud]

[QUOTE="Sinister2202, post: 22527610, member: 153444"
My ethics are: Xenophobe, militarist, and individualist. For some reason, I had assumed that xenophobe ethics covered tolerance for purge, but turns out it was only xeno-slavery.
.[/QUOTE] This is why you had issue purging the only i mean only ethic that okay with purging is Collectivist also individualists HATE purging

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

This is why you had issue purging the only i mean only ethic that okay with purging is Collectivist also individualists HATE purging

Yeah. Of course you fractured and fell apart because of Factions- you did stuff highly counter to your Ethos and then didn't manage your Factions at all. Individualist is the Ethos that specifically opposes slavery and purging- Collectivist is the one you need to use to be okay with purging (and also if you plan to suppress factions).

 

[General Retreat]

Xenophobes generally won't have a problem with xeno purging, at least in my experience.

Your problem seems to be individualist. So far as a hierarchy of like/dislike goes, individualist opposition to purging overrules xenophobic acceptance.

My advice: drop individualist and upgrade xenophobe to fanatic.

 

[Aurtose]

I like the planetary information quarantine edict idea.
Apply it to other empires too though, don't let anyone know that you're purging.
Of course, if another empire can see the planet (sensor link, ships in the system, federation, etc.) they'd be even more upset that you tried to secretly purge and may tell other empires.
If I swallow an alien empire that was entirely encompassed by my borders then purge them, I don't want any alien empires to know about it - why would they, it's not like they could visit the planets and its not like they're losing governmental interaction, I already took over the government.

This would really need to be added alongside espionage though.

 

[The Founder]

My glorious empire fragmented and died like the Roman Empire, all because I decided to purge aliens and didn't pay attention to factions... But it's strange because my pops are conformists, so there's negative ethics diversion everywhere, even in sectors.

My ethics are: Xenophobe, militarist, and individualist. For some reason, I had assumed that xenophobe ethics covered tolerance for purge, but turns out it was only xeno-slavery.

Don't you guys think we need tolerance for purge? I thought it was already in the game. I had assumed it was, because to me, it was logical. If it WAS in the game, what's the reason for removal?

It makes sense that xenophobe individualists hate slavery on themselves, but tolerate slavery of aliens, and there's even policy for that (xeno, regulated xeno..etc). Purge already has policy like that too (prohibited, xeno only, outlawed), and even my primary species have no problem whatsoever of allowing purge of the xenos (otherwise the tooltip would've told me at least 600 pops would be against it).

Anyways, so I was thinking about information quarantine edict, a very dull edict not even worth spending influence. All the solutions it gives can easily be solved without using it. In fact, I think all edicts are dull except for grand armada and some you discover along the way. And no, I'm not talking about planetary edicts. They are very useful, but not the empire-wide edicts most of the time. Why can't we have planetary information quarantine and just purge the hell out of the aliens and not tell anyone else about it? Quarantining information could be about preventing ethics divergence, but I wish it was something more than that... but oh well that's just my personal opinion.

First, did you read the Dev Diaries for the 1.5 Patch? Because that pretty much changes this part of the game and will be here on 6th of April.

Negative Atraction still needs time to work. And especially the initial colonist/early migration and resettlement Ethos plays a huge role in how the colony will develop Ethically with growth. And Factions can spread Ethics too as part of thier "build support" action.
There are a lot more ways for Divergence to spread then for Convergence.

Xenophobe does have tollerancy for Alien-Only purge. Always had it. Check if the pops that actually rebelled were still Xenophobes. Alien empies will still be worried that you purge them later, unless they are purgers themself.
All with overrides if it is your own species that was purged, of course (not even purgers want the risk of themself being purged).

Information Quarantine would not be enough. I estimate a single pop "unit" to be somewhere between 500 million to 1 billion human equivalents. So a single 16 size homeworld can hold between 8 and 16 Billion Humans.
You can not just hide them vanishing and there "suddenly" being a lot of vacant places for another species over the space of 2 years.

People will always claim they "did not knew" of the Atrocities of thier Government at any given time. Usually they are lying. Killing millions to billions is just to big an operation to not have some people leak what is happening. Conspiracies by nature get less reliable the bigger they get.

 

[Sibericus]

First, did you read the Dev Diaries for the 1.5 Patch? Because that pretty much changes this part of the game and will be here on 6th of April.

Negative Atraction still needs time to work. And especially the initial colonist/early migration and resettlement Ethos plays a huge role in how the colony will develop Ethically with growth. And Factions can spread Ethics too as part of thier "build support" action.
There are a lot more ways for Divergence to spread then for Convergence.

Xenophobe does have tollerancy for Alien-Only purge. Always had it. Check if the pops that actually rebelled were still Xenophobes. Alien empies will still be worried that you purge them later, unless they are purgers themself.
All with overrides if it is your own species that was purged, of course (not even purgers want the risk of themself being purged).

Information Quarantine would not be enough. I estimate a single pop "unit" to be somewhere between 500 million to 1 billion human equivalents. So a single 16 size homeworld can hold between 8 and 16 Billion Humans.
You can not just hide them vanishing and there "suddenly" being a lot of vacant places for another species over the space of 2 years.

People will always claim they "did not knew" of the Atrocities of thier Government at any given time. Usually they are lying. Killing millions to billions is just to big an operation to not have some people leak what is happening. Conspiracies by nature get less reliable the bigger they get.

But across a galaxy? If your government starts controlling the media, what would be preventing them from saying that those filthy xenos died in a natural event or even denying that they existed in the first place? It is most likely many solar systems away from them and if the government also controls and restricts interplanetary communication, how would your citizens ever be the wiser.

 

[ISitOnGnomes]

But across a galaxy? If your government starts controlling the media, what would be preventing them from saying that those filthy xenos died in a natural event or even denying that they existed in the first place? It is most likely many solar systems away from them and if the government also controls and restricts interplanetary communication, how would your citizens ever be the wiser.

Soviet Union, Turkey, and Nazi Gemany. All three nations existed in a world with interconnected communications where they contorolled the media within their borders, and yet the world knows about their atrocities. Now you are wondering how, in a universe with instant communication across the galaxy and FTL travel, a star nation couldnt keep the systematic extermination of an entire planet worth of creatures a state secret?

My guess is that they could manage to keep this a secret for a few months or maybe even a year, but probably not much longer than that. 10B+ people don't just disappear without someone wondering what happened to them.

 

[Aurtose]

Soviet Union, Turkey, and Nazi Gemany. All three nations existed in a world with interconnected communications where they contorolled the media within their borders, and yet the world knows about their atrocities. Now you are wondering how, in a universe with instant communication across the galaxy and FTL travel, a star nation couldnt keep the systematic extermination of an entire planet worth of creatures a state secret?

My guess is that they could manage to keep this a secret for a few months or maybe even a year, but probably not much longer than that. 10B+ people don't just disappear without someone wondering what happened to them.

It would also likely require more means through which planets/large amounts of population could be wiped out 'naturally'. That way a government could in theory blame the missing people on something other than them.

Currently we only have (to my knowledge) abandoned terraforming equipment (either of the 2 bad results) and the meteor that can naturally kill pops.
Adding ways for crystals, void clouds, mining drones and possibly space amoebas to reproduce and purge once angered could have some mileage to it.
Breakouts at particularly hostile alien zoos (edict/upgrade that boosts research from alien zoos but may purge the pop working it and cause unhappiness, can be triggered manually?), planetary plagues (beginning infertility or normal purging, reducing happiness and requiring a project to solve, may spread via migration, can be triggered?) and power plant detonation (power plants during capacity overload may detonate, turning into bomb craters, can be triggered manually on a specific plant with a chance to chain to adjacent plants or non-adjacent power hubs? Maybe have an alternate version for mines that can create volcanoes) could also work.

Performing a cover-up of a purge would also involve the planting of evidence to make it look genuine, though without damage to the extent of the real event and with the possibility of discovery should the planet be surveyed or re-colonised.

 

[The Founder]

It would also likely require more means through which planets/large amounts of population could be wiped out 'naturally'. That way a government could in theory blame the missing people on something other than them.

You already have the option to "Neuter" people, wich as I understand is the "softests way to purge" short of Displacement.

Asteroids, Space Amobeas, mining drones and the like do not work. By the time you have enough comminication that it maters where this information spreads, you have so many Spaceports and Fleet they should not even be remotely capable of threathening your pops.
If you tried to pull that story your people would either not believe it. Or starting to believe you are to inept to run your empire, because you let that happen. In both cases they end up angry. It would be like the Civ USSR with nuclear weapons claming "there suddenly spwaned a dozen barbarians that killed all those people in the middle of our empire".

If anything a way to affect "communication spread" could be a good tool. Recently I realised that the Diplomacy penalty is based mostly on who you can talk too. The less communication travels, the less people can be mad about it.

 

[Slynx]

nformation Quarantine would not be enough. I estimate a single pop "unit" to be somewhere between 500 million to 1 billion human equivalents. So a single 16 size homeworld can hold between 8 and 16 Billion Humans.
You can not just hide them vanishing and there "suddenly" being a lot of vacant places for another species over the space of 2 years.

People will always claim they "did not knew" of the Atrocities of thier Government at any given time. Usually they are lying. Killing millions to billions is just to big an operation to not have some people leak what is happening. Conspiracies by nature get less reliable the bigger they get.

there are plenty examples in the past about families vanishing because they were unwelcome in society. not only families. lots of small villages and towns. and i don't think it's that different from vanishing planet in a space empire and even if people knew about government's deeds they may be simply too afraid to speak about it.

My guess is that they could manage to keep this a secret for a few months or maybe even a year, but probably not much longer than that. 10B+ people don't just disappear without someone wondering what happened to them.

all communications with the planet suddenly lost. when government sent ships to see what happened they've returned with a grim news - the planet was empty. only few billion robots were silently working at their mining stations. even if someone were curious enough to investigate he found that all evidence were ruined

and don't forget that in OP's case there were purging of filthy xenos. probably no one will even care

Your problem seems to be individualist. So far as a hierarchy of like/dislike goes, individualist opposition to purging overrules xenophobic acceptance.

this is so counter-intuitive humans were generally ok with killing non-humans: cows for meat, foxes for fur, some predators just for safety..even black people(for fun?) and etc. what's wrong with killing some xenos scum?

If anything a way to affect "communication spread" could be a good tool. Recently I realised that the Diplomacy penalty is based mostly on who you can talk too. The less communication travels, the less people can be mad about it.

yeah. same with exploring. if you don't decipher their communications they can't close borders to you.

 

[Slynx]

anyway..it probably wouldn't matter in 1.5. they're changing a lot of stuff

 

[The Founder]

all communications with the planet suddenly lost. when government sent ships to see what happened they've returned with a grim news - the planet was empty. only few billion robots were silently working at their mining stations. even if someone were curious enough to investigate he found that all evidence were ruined

and don't forget that in OP's case there were purging of filthy xenos. probably no one will even care

One FTL transmitter scrounged together or captured in a Rebel raid and your whole "Secret Purge" is leaked to the galaxy and your Empire.
You are killing Billions using Millions of Soldiers to keep them pacified while doing it. Yet somehow you asume there can be no incident where this information is leaked? Even on scales far below what a single army represents?
You should consider every day it is not leaked a blessing. And never even think about it not being leaked.

If you are a Xenophobe empire and 'suddenly' billion aliens go missing, what will people asume? That they space-hamster lead them to another galaxy? Or that you murdered them as the "Inferior Xeno" you always said they were? I could even see Diplomatic Incidents where random events that kill pops are asumed Xenophobic Government Atrocities by miss-asociation.

If the people "do not dare to speak up about it" it is a matter of them being unhappy, but not being able to act on it. Supressed Rebel Factions in 1.4. Supressed Unrest in 1.5. There are still unhappy, however. And supressing that will cost you something.

 

[Slynx]

One FTL transmitter scrounged together or captured in a Rebel raid

so we have means to almost entirely kill wifi or other radio signals...but we can't deal with some futuristic mumbo-jumbo?

"Secret Purge"

and don't forget that in OP's case there were purging of filthy xenos. probably no one will even care

i don't even see the needs for secrecy. unless you're non-collectivist.
but in OP's case maybe it'll be the reason to have a little paranoia for a while ;D

You are killing Billions

again i see no problem here.

using Millions of Soldiers to keep them pacified while doing it.

we don't know how they are kept in line. i never build land armies. they are useless.(except maybe crisis times). i guess government tell them to say goodbye and suicide and they do it. most logical explanation to me.

If you are a Xenophobe empire and 'suddenly' billion aliens go missing, what will people asume?

if i were a citizen of my stellaris' empire i probably would know that THINKING will lead to asking questions. and asking wrong questions will lead to my death. so i would probably be as happy as possible and do my work

"do not dare to speak up about it"

but there is no reason to be unhappy.also when i play i usually have no need to suppress malcontent slave faction. cuz it's non existent. all slaves are happy and enjoying their eternal work on minerals\food. (mind control lasers + propaganda usually do the job). in my last game i even prohibited the purge (it made 106 pops 2.5% happier) cuz i haven't used it for a long time. there were no need.

ps: i have an animal farm near the place where i live. hundreds or even more animals processed every month. and i don't see any demonstrations agains it.people just don't care. and if something will happent with it and it'll be closed. i doubt they'll care about it for a long time.

 

[TheDeadlyShoe]

If you feel that strongly about facing no consequences for genocide, mod it.

 

[The Founder]

so we have means to almost entirely kill wifi or other radio signals...but we can't deal with some futuristic mumbo-jumbo?

In a local area? Sure.
On a Planetary Scale? Yeah, propably not.

And that is asuming that there even is a way to Jam FTL communications.
If there was such a way, the Diplomacy game would propably incorporate it (like loosing contact on being cut off from allies).

Nope, it being kept a secret on those scales is loudicrous. You can certainly go for Neutering. Wich is a very slow, low impact way to purge. But Killing billions without one of the hundred of planets inhabited by other billions catching wind of that? Yeah, ain't gonna happen.

On the mater of secrecy: We just had a case where the UN ruled that the damage to a Syrian Water Plant was not "insurgents with bombs", but clearly an airstrike. And the insurgents somewhat lack in the Airforce department.

 

[AvalancheZ250]

My glorious empire fragmented and died like the Roman Empire, all because I decided to purge aliens and didn't pay attention to factions... But it's strange because my pops are conformists, so there's negative ethics diversion everywhere, even in sectors.

My ethics are: Xenophobe, militarist, and individualist. For some reason, I had assumed that xenophobe ethics covered tolerance for purge, but turns out it was only xeno-slavery.

Don't you guys think we need tolerance for purge? I thought it was already in the game. I had assumed it was, because to me, it was logical. If it WAS in the game, what's the reason for removal?

It makes sense that xenophobe individualists hate slavery on themselves, but tolerate slavery of aliens, and there's even policy for that (xeno, regulated xeno..etc). Purge already has policy like that too (prohibited, xeno only, outlawed), and even my primary species have no problem whatsoever of allowing purge of the xenos (otherwise the tooltip would've told me at least 600 pops would be against it).

Anyways, so I was thinking about information quarantine edict, a very dull edict not even worth spending influence. All the solutions it gives can easily be solved without using it. In fact, I think all edicts are dull except for grand armada and some you discover along the way. And no, I'm not talking about planetary edicts. They are very useful, but not the empire-wide edicts most of the time. Why can't we have planetary information quarantine and just purge the hell out of the aliens and not tell anyone else about it? Quarantining information could be about preventing ethics divergence, but I wish it was something more than that... but oh well that's just my personal opinion.

Banks will mutate purging, slavery and all that stuff more than the Blorg slaves I currently rule on Blorg Prime. So just wait for the new system and test it out.