Purge Penalties

[Exarian]

This conversation is specifically about purging so of course there's no talk about the balance of pacifists, just like there hasn't been any discussion on any of the other ethics either.
The fallacy of your argument is that by us saying that the xenophobic game needs rebalancing DOES NOT mean that the pacifist game doesn't (I personally wouldn't know as i can imagine it being boring as fook).
For the pacifist strategy to be equally as broken it would need all of your citizens to down tools when you're at war (as obviously pacifists wouldn't support military action) and all your military ships surrender instantly and then we can just say that to play pacifist you're meant to avoid wars entirely...

Perfect example of Pacifist "Empire" is Galactic Federation from Star Trek - they avoid war as long as possible, and at war they try to keep as much humanity as they can - but they do not avoid wars for all cost. War is the last option, but is still fully respected.

IMO it should not be named militaristic vs pacifist, but militaristic vs diplomatic. It is much more precise, since fanatic pacifist are either forced to change their ethos ASAP, or are doomed to die in first conflict/

 

[TerrBear]

Perfect example of Pacifist "Empire" is Galactic Federation from Star Trek - they avoid war as long as possible, and at war they try to keep as much humanity as they can - but they do not avoid wars for all cost. War is the last option, but is still fully respected.

IMO it should not be named militaristic vs pacifist, but militaristic vs diplomatic. It is much more precise, since fanatic pacifist are either forced to change their ethos ASAP, or are doomed to die in first conflict/

You're right,
I was purely doing a bit of satire in regards to how pacifists should play as it seems to be peoples argument that to play a xenophobe you should just not purge (which then you should just pick a different ethics choice).

 

[Daronaollard]

I do hope with the next update that something will be adjusted. I mean with all the new options that we are getting, what's the point in having them without being able to use them because everyone will hate us for it.

 

[antikaratekid]

Not literally immediate, but comparatively immediate. Certainly doesn't take decades to solve.

I do play Individualist in my latest game, but that doesn't help when freshly conquered pops take an additional -20% happiness because they disagree with 5 of your policies (and that's for only moderate ethos disagreements; this easily goes up to -40% for fanatical axis clashes). Sure, fanatic individualists get a much bigger -60% unhappiness reduction from policies -- but that's TWO of your ethos points and denies 2/3 of government options ingame.

As a result, something like 80% of my war gains are liberations (only strategic planets get conquered) so I don't have to deal with ethic differences. That really slows down rate of expansion.




Why do you think the propaganda war (i.e. syria) that accompanies modern warfare is all about trying to make civilian casualties of war look unintentional rather than deliberate?

When you purge, there is no question about the deliberate-ness of it. When you kill them in war, at least you have a level of pausable deniability ("oops, we totally didn't mean that... even though anyone with two brain cells to rub together can tell that we totally did, but you can't prove it.")

Sorry, but you're flat wrong about this. Unleashing swarms of indiscriminate all consuming monsters across a landscape who kill defenders who drop their guns, can't take prisoners, eat women and children in the way, along with decimating the natural fauna is a warcrime. Yes, we can control them in that we can direct their attack. But you can never control their slaying of unarmed combatants, women, children, and environmental destruction. Not to mention the giant monster army you can drop as another option. There is NO hiding this at all or ways you could conceal it with propaganda. You dropped a xenomorph army on them. Everyone knows what happens.

 

[zanaikin]

Sorry, but you're flat wrong about this. Unleashing swarms of indiscriminate all consuming monsters across a landscape who kill defenders who drop their guns, can't take prisoners, eat women and children in the way, along with decimating the natural fauna is a warcrime. Yes, we can control them in that we can direct their attack. But you can never control their slaying of unarmed combatants, women, children, and environmental destruction. Not to mention the giant monster army you can drop as another option. There is NO hiding this at all or ways you could conceal it with propaganda. You dropped a xenomorph army on them. Everyone knows what happens.

Yes well, Xenomorphs is ... special. I'm still surprised it's not a dangerous tech with events for causing disasters. But I did not state xenomorphs did I? So why are you punching the straw man again?

 

[SeeGee]

I agree that purge penalties are messed up. Xenophiles shouldn't care one bit if another species is purged by anyone. Individuals should care a lot. 1.5 has interesting mechanics added regarding the pop management, but purge penalties themselves need to be more dynamic. Distance and allies should also have weight. If you're far away, I care a little less. If you're next door, I care more. If you purge my allies species, I care. If you purge my enemies species (and I'm ok with purging) there should be a relations bonus. This is very difficult to get balanced, but if you had a base value, and then used modifiers for each species, then I think it could be done

 

[Occursus Morini]

Information Quarantine should be used to control the information coming in and out of your planets/systems. For instance, it could be used to stop the information about purging getting out of your empire or even generating unrest in other part of your empire. Thus, other empires could not in the first place be sure about your actions... Well, the idea would be good especially if it came with other spying mechanics which are outside the scope of the next expansion.

Perhaps in the future.

 

[Pyramid_Head]

Welcome to the club

 

[Ikael]

Since they are going to make far more "granular" types of purges, it is only logical that they scale the diplomatic penalties accordingly, and the developers have stated it so. I can imagine something like this:

Neutering << forced displacement < forced labor = regular purging <<<< freaking eating people alive

It would also seem to me that there ought to be some kind of propaganda / information quarantine measures in order to keep your crimes under wraps and minimize these penalties. Many of the mankind's greatest crimes did only came into light decades after they were perpetrated, such as the holomodor, but that might be saved for a future expansion that includes a full fledged spyionage system.

 

[Foefaller]

Since they are going to make far more "granular" types of purges, it is only logical that they scale the diplomatic penalties accordingly, and the developers have stated it so. I can imagine something like this:

Neutering << forced displacement < forced labor = regular purging <<<< freaking eating people alive

It would also seem to me that there ought to be some kind of propaganda / information quarantine measures in order to keep your crimes under wraps and minimize these penalties. Many of the mankind's greatest crimes did only came into light decades after they were perpetrated, such as the holomodor, but that might be saved for a future expansion that includes a full fledged spyionage system.

Na, displacement should be the least offensive, as they are still allowed to live, just not in your empire.

Think it would be more like

Displacement<Neutering<Force Labor<Exterminate<Processing.

As for Diplomacy, IMO having the "option" to shut yourself out of it due to your actions is not, in and of itself, a bad thing. There are even factions in other 4X and grand strategy games where this is actually one of their features (The Cravers from Endless Space, for example) I will agree, however, that the current penalties for purging far outstrip any advantage that might be gained for doing it.

 

[AndrewT]

Godwin's Law triumphs again! All posts mentioning such matters have been deleted.

Any future such mentioned will be infracted. Last and only warning.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Sorry, but you're flat wrong about this. Unleashing swarms of indiscriminate all consuming monsters across a landscape who kill defenders who drop their guns, can't take prisoners, eat women and children in the way, along with decimating the natural fauna is a warcrime. Yes, we can control them in that we can direct their attack. But you can never control their slaying of unarmed combatants, women, children, and environmental destruction. Not to mention the giant monster army you can drop as another option. There is NO hiding this at all or ways you could conceal it with propaganda. You dropped a xenomorph army on them. Everyone knows what happens.

Question.

Where does the game say that xeno armies go on indiscriminate killing sprees of women and children?

Legit question.

 

[Cagliostro]

To clarify (as the OP), I would not be opposed to more things being classified as war crimes and upsetting people; I just think that the current scale of reaction to war crimes is off, based upon both gameplay and our knowledge of human behavior. It is entirely possible that unleashing murderous monsters on the surface of a planet should be regarded as some level of war crime.

At the very least one should have to show a pattern of war crimes to get *everyone* to care substantially (empires that are not near you and have no internal ethos of involving themselves in the behavior of others). By pattern I mean committing several war crimes or committing them against disparate populations.

The following things should make people care a lot, IMHO:
a) war crimes against their people, or potentially people that are similar to their people
b) war crimes committed by empires that are a real potential military threat to them
c) an internal ethos of inclusivity and opposition to war crimes

 

[Occursus Morini]

Question.

Where does the game say that xeno armies go on indiscriminate killing sprees of women and children?

Legit question.

http://www.stellariswiki.com/Land_warfare

Ravenous hordes of bio-engineered horrors made up of little more than teeth, claws, and an instinctive urge to kill. A cadre of scientists monitor and supervise the raging swarms as best they can from hardened bunkers behind the front.

It sounds quite... chaotic would be the better word in this scenario.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

http://www.stellariswiki.com/Land_warfare

Ravenous hordes of bio-engineered horrors made up of little more than teeth, claws, and an instinctive urge to kill. A cadre of scientists monitor and supervise the raging swarms as best they can from hardened bunkers behind the front.

It sounds quite... chaotic would be the better word in this scenario.

So it doesn't actually say that, and you've imposed your personal vision of events on the text.

 

[wurmkrank]

So it doesn't actually say that, and you've imposed your personal vision of events on the text.

Give me a break dude, the description clearly states that there's little control over these monsters. You think they see non combatants and decide not to kill them like an idealistic soldier?

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Give me a break dude, the description clearly states that there's little control over these monsters. You think they see non combatants and decide not to kill them like an idealistic soldier?

I think that with no mechanical support to that view of things, we have to assume (unless/until it is changed) that xeno armies are deployed in such a way that collateral damage is equivalent to any other army.

 

[wurmkrank]

I think that with no mechanical support to that view of things, we have to assume (unless/until it is changed) that xeno armies are deployed in such a way that collateral damage is equivalent to any other army.

I'm sorry. I actually misinterpreted the point that the xeno army guy was trying to make. After further investigation I couldn't actually identify what his argument was. I thought you were talking about whether xeno armies should be war crimes or not.

 

[wurmkrank]

To clarify (as the OP), I would not be opposed to more things being classified as war crimes and upsetting people; I just think that the current scale of reaction to war crimes is off, based upon both gameplay and our knowledge of human behavior. It is entirely possible that unleashing murderous monsters on the surface of a planet should be regarded as some level of war crime.

At the very least one should have to show a pattern of war crimes to get *everyone* to care substantially (empires that are not near you and have no internal ethos of involving themselves in the behavior of others). By pattern I mean committing several war crimes or committing them against disparate populations.

The following things should make people care a lot, IMHO:
a) war crimes against their people, or potentially people that are similar to their people
b) war crimes committed by empires that are a real potential military threat to them
c) an internal ethos of inclusivity and opposition to war crimes

yeah I agree with you. Xenophobe empires shouldn't care at all, unless a). Authoritarian empires shouldn't care at all. Also, those two ethos should overwrite their secondary ethos that would otherwise be affected by c), such as an individualist/xenophobe shouldn't care about purging unless a) but an individualist/(not xenophobe) would care A LOT.
Another idea that I haven't seen floating around would be to tie the purge penalty to the empires leader. Mao was an authoritarian leader who purged a lot, but we don't hold the Chinese government responsible for what he did even though their ethos hasn't changed.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

Reaction to purges should revolve around two concerns, which should affect empires of different ethos, and in different situations:

1. Moral outrage. Xenophiles and egalitarians, as well as empires with individualist-y personality types and neither xenophobe or authoritarian ethos, should despise genocidaires on principle. Any genocide anywhere should piss them off, with the more fanatical ideologists being more pissed off. The current penalty is perfect for fanatic xenophiles or egalitarians.
2. Self concern. Everyone should be concerned about the possibility of their people being systematically murdered upon conquest. Genocide should cause massive diplo penalties to any empire that feels threatened by you, i.e. rivals, non-allied neighbors, and vassals. And of course, if you purge a species that is loved and accepted in another empire, that empire should be outraged.