Purge Penalties

[Cagliostro]

Anyone else think purge penalties seem a bit... high? I tried purging a planet for the first time today, and was amazed to find out that i got a penalty of -90 to -270 through the entire galaxy. This on top of the penalties for being xenophobic and having a bad purge policy.

The malus goes away at one per year. I don't know if there's a cap, but if i got two such penalties that means that I would essentially be hated by everyone for over a hundred years - to the point of people not willing to carry out basic diplomacy with me. The game is not even 400 years long.

IMHO this doesn't reflect the actual self-interest of people. When other humans are being slaughtered on the same planet, we only care *some*. Would we really care so much about the plant people of Zarblex Four?

I mean, people should care. And *some* people should care a lot. And if you do it repeatedly there should be a serious diplomatic penalty. But I don't think the penalty for, like, fanatic xenophobes on the other side of the galaxy should be so heinous.

I don't know, say, Star Trek history very well, but I imagine the Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians 'purged' some people they didn't like. Yet they were still able to make and maintain alliances with some other people (I think the Cardassians had some sort of federation?). Even humans and Kzinti made peace after many wars (including purges) without a -300 malus effect to diplomacy. And the Kzinti were purging humans.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

You're missing the point that by slaughtering millions (if not billions) of your people you are sending the clear message to the rest of the galaxy that you're incredibly ruthless and vicious, after-all if you're willing to butcher your people then what would you be willing to do to their people?

 

[Cagliostro]

But you in fact murder millions/billions all the time. You can bombard a planet until everyone is dead. From a realistic standpoint genocide has rarely been a CB on actual Earth - why should people who have no actual fear of you or really interaction with you at all care so much?

From a strategic point of view most governments, at least the ones we are familiar with, are much more concerned about your aggression against them, and not against minorities in your own backyard. Getting a -90 with the whole galaxy is akin to seizing a few worlds from each nation. It is wildly disproportionate.

I am genuinely puzzled that more people don't find this problematic as a game mechanic - I have been playing inclusive empires so far, and just tried this game as a variation. After doing it to one planet my game has become basically unplayable because of galaxy-wide total hatred. I may never try it again. I presume the way people get around this is by making their empire super-powerful before purging anything, and then engaging in constant galactic war for the rest of the game. But perhaps there's some other tactic to use?

To reiterate, I am not against there being a penalty - even a substantial penalty - I just think that there should be a meaningful ramp-up.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

But you in fact murder millions/billions all the time. You can bombard a planet until everyone is dead. From a realistic standpoint genocide has rarely been a CB on actual Earth - why should people who have no actual fear of you or really interaction with you at all care so much?

Because by committing mass murder you have shown yourself to have no problem butchering your own citizens, thus you become a threat because you would be willing too butcher theirs.

From a strategic point of view most governments, at least the ones we are familiar with, are much more concerned about your aggression against them, and not against minorities in your own backyard. Getting a -90 with the whole galaxy is akin to seizing a few worlds from each nation. It is wildly disproportionate.

I disagree, strategically aggression against your own people is clear evidence that you would be willing to commit aggression to others.

I am genuinely puzzled that more people don't find this problematic as a game mechanic - I have been playing inclusive empires so far, and just tried this game as a variation. After doing it to one planet my game has become basically unplayable because of galaxy-wide total hatred. I may never try it again. I presume the way people get around this is by making their empire super-powerful before purging anything, and then engaging in constant galactic war for the rest of the game. But perhaps there's some other tactic to use?

I am puzzled that you don't understand that butchering millions will bother other polities for both/either moral or pragmatic reasons.

 

[Chilled Legumes]

I view it as a roleplay mechanic that sacrifices gameplay to be such. Unfortunately, thats why i stay away from purging.

 

[laptor]

The purge penalties are too heavy. I can understand the above mentioned points.
But there is a gameplay reason to decrease the penalty: the now used mechanic will destroy all further diplomancy for the rest of the game! Even if you abandon Inka one planet due to wargoal everybody hate and attack you...

 

[Cagliostro]

Because by committing mass murder you have shown yourself to have no problem butchering your own citizens, thus you become a threat because you would be willing too butcher theirs.

I disagree, strategically aggression against your own people is clear evidence that you would be willing to commit aggression to others

Again, this theory totally ignores the lessons of human history. Many countries have engaged in various levels of genocide; aside from modern industrialized democracies, the only times it has resulted in military force is when strategic or religious interests are threatened.

I am puzzled that you don't understand that butchering millions will bother other polities for both/either moral or pragmatic reasons.

You are deliberately misreading my post. I have already acknowledged it should bother people, multiple times. I am discussing scale.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[redomer]

Purging permanently ruins diplomacy even with empires that have the same purging policies and ethics.
What do they care? There is even an extra malus for having purged the species of an empire.
It is like the OP said +1 per year is not enough to ever recover.

 

[calen]

Again, this theory totally ignores the lessons of human history. Many countries have engaged in various levels of genocide; aside from modern industrialized democracies, the only times it has resulted in military force is when strategic or religious interests are threatened.

>Implying aliens read human history.
>Implying not responding with military force is the same as being ok with genocide.

 

[The_Meme_Man]

I can see where this thread is going.

I'm sorry, but I see no reason for ANY government to NOT be enraged when someone butchers an ENTIRE POPULATION based solely only on the species they were. Even fanatical purgers won't feel good about you purging....because they don't like competition.

Perhaps no penalty drop for purging a species that another species deems undesirable as well, but I am very weary of the mindset that warranted questioning this mechanic because to me it doesn't seem ENTIRELY a gameplay perspective....VERY weary...

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I can see where this thread is going.

I'm sorry, but I see no reason for ANY government to NOT be enraged when someone butchers an ENTIRE POPULATION based solely only on the species they were. Even fanatical purgers won't feel good about you purging....because they don't like competition.

Perhaps no penalty drop for purging a species that another species deems undesirable as well, but I am very weary of the mindset that warranted questioning this mechanic because to me it doesn't seem ENTIRELY a gameplay perspective....VERY weary...

I'm of mostly the same opinion.

I do think that maybe the malus could stand to decay with distance more than it does now- an empire declaring war on you on the opposite end of the galaxy over purging probably shouldn't happen barring other factors- but it makes total sense to me that NOBODY likes purging and view it as an Existential Threat universally.

 

[Alblaka]

The Purge penalities are so absurdly high, you can only ever use it in a full xenophobe purge playthrough in first place.

However, I feel like the game would benefit from players (and AI) being able to purge i.e. small primitive empires (aka 1 planet 5ish pops) without being permanently enemy to everyone. Likewise, purging a 'galatic threat' should be much less punishing, too (i.e. purging afromentioned xenophobe purge fanatists).

As it stands now, purging is positively unrealistic (yes, we're talking billions, but that's billions amongst trillions in the scale of the galaxy) and unfeasible as a gameplay mechanic. Latter alone would mark it for a rework.

 

[redomer]

I can see where this thread is going.

I'm sorry, but I see no reason for ANY government to NOT be enraged when someone butchers an ENTIRE POPULATION based solely only on the species they were. Even fanatical purgers won't feel good about you purging....because they don't like competition.

Perhaps no penalty drop for purging a species that another species deems undesirable as well, but I am very weary of the mindset that warranted questioning this mechanic because to me it doesn't seem ENTIRELY a gameplay perspective....VERY weary...

I think you are misunderstanding something here. There is no issue with a xenophile or something like that hating purges but there is a a problem with all empires hating you everywhere for the rest of the game and b a problem that with like minded empires hating you as well.
The Dark Eldar in Warhammer don't really care if the Tau purge humans and I am fairly cerain that Mussolini didn't really care about the Holocaust either.
BTW Try to not imply that others are genocidal maniacs. It helps keeping the discussion civil.

 

[MGoods]

I feel like anyone who has purging enabled should care less than they do right now, hell they might even like you if you purge their rival's pops. Purging should severly limit your diplo options, but maybe throw like minded empires together as a natural progression of it's occurrence.

 

[The_Meme_Man]

Remember, this is also alien purging. Human purging, relatively, is much smaller scale. Purging one population alone is unprecedented in scale. I think -90 is perfectly justified because even fanatical purifiers fear that they will be next (purifiers also generally like reasons to feel victimized). Since the game goes on a year by year manner, 90 years to normalize relations is actually pretty fast for someone who is worse than Genghis Khan.

Purging opinions could be based on the class of the species, which I WOULD understand. I.e, purging another species undesirables has no penalty, purging another species slaves has a minimal penalty (-10 to -20), purging another species second-class citizens has between -30 and -50 relations (higher penalty for more pacifist societies), caste system ranking and full citizen rankings range between -70 and -90 relations for purging. I suspect the new Utopia mechanics will address this.

 

[Cagliostro]

Remember, this is also alien purging. Human purging, relatively, is much smaller scale. Purging one population alone is unprecedented in scale. I think -90 is perfectly justified because even fanatical purifiers fear that they will be next (purifiers also generally like reasons to feel victimized). Since the game goes on a year by year manner, 90 years to normalize relations is actually pretty fast for someone who is worse than Genghis Khan.

Perhaps, but I think you're ignoring that it's also waaaaaay farther away and even more abstract. Like, if humans are being murdered I know what that means. If tree-like creatures are being exterminated, depending on my philosophy I may not really care.

I do agree though that perhaps it should be based somewhat on your subtype.

 

[redomer]

I have a weird example where the purge penalties were absurd:

I liberated two empires and made them join my federation. Both empires shared my ethics and likely laws as well. Then I started a war to cleanse the planets of another empire with no connection to my new federation buddies. We won the war but now the federation members hated that I cleansed the planets. They both agreed to wage the war and they actively helped winning. How does that make sense?

Perhaps, but I think you're ignoring that it's also waaaaaay farther away and even more abstract. Like, if humans are being murdered I know what that means. If tree-like creatures are being exterminated, depending on my philosophy I may not really care.

I do agree though that perhaps it should be based somewhat on your subtype.

That is what ethics are for. Pops with certain ethics hate purges as well. Some more some less. Maybe the same should apply to empires?

 

[Madzai]

I have a weird example were the purge penalties were absurd....

Main problem with purges (and not only with purges) isn't the penalty itself, but inconsistency in how purges are viewed. With current approach, in 1.5 is going be even more of a mess - with new ways to mistreat the POP and changed ethics.

That is what ethics are for. Pops with certain ethics hate purges as well. Some more some less. Maybe the same should apply to empires?

I think AI personalities should be reworked a lot to work well with the system. The whole bunch of them (from description) already feel like the shouldn't care for purges - Evangelizing Zealots, Ruthless Capitalists, Hegemonic Imperialists, Slaving Despots, Xenophobic Isolationists, Hive Minds - i don't see why those oppose purging as long as it's not the POP of their founding species (or species with granted full citizenship).

 

[redomer]

Main problem with purges (and not only with purges) isn't the penalty itself, but inconsistency in how purges are viewed. With current approach, in 1.5 is going be even more of a mess - with new ways to mistreat the POP and changed ethics.

I think AI personalities should be reworked a lot to work well with the system. The whole bunch of them (from description) already feel like the shouldn't care for purges - Evangelizing Zealots, Ruthless Capitalists, Hegemonic Imperialists, Slaving Despots, Xenophobic Isolationists, Hive Minds - i don't see why those oppose purging as long as it's not the POP of their founding species.

There is actually a seperate opinion malus for purging the species of another empire. I think it is called 'purged my species' and it goes up to -1000 as well.

 

[Madzai]

There is actually a seperate opinion malus for purging the species of another empire. I think it is called 'purged my species' and it goes up to -1000 as well.

Heh, that' crazy. Could missed it as i usually purge only primitives or pre FTL-species. Another thing about current purges is that they trow you into the spiral of more hatred and purges. You purge - neighbors hate you - gang against you - you have to fight them - gain more undesirable POPs to purge or cleanse planets - everyone hate you more so you have to build up military... All started with purging a couple of stone age primitives. And forget about purges if you aren't the "top dog" in your corner of galaxy - the only thing that prevent you from being mauled by some Federations is overall weakness of AI and its low aggressiveness.