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Frosted Vert

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The Purchase of Foreign Aircraft

In the years leading up to the Second World War, the United States aviation industry produced thousands of aircraft for foreign purchasers. France was the main client, but the UK, Netherlands and Belgium also purchased American aircraft. These foreign buyers helped keep the US aviation industry in business at a time when the United States Army Air Corps was very small. The development of advanced aircraft for foreign use lead to the design and production of many aircraft that would become famous in US service during WWII. It allowed France and the UK to expand their own air forces during the arms buildup from 1938, and provided them with modern aircraft in large numbers.

I believe that this should be represented in Hearts of Iron 4, that it can be represented using existing systems, and that there is incentive for both players and AI to participate as both buyers and sellers.

Production License in HoI 3

Hearts of Iron 3 somewhat represented the foreign purchase of aircraft using the Production Licenses mechanic. This system allowed nations to produce units they would otherwise be unable to in exchange for money.

Production Licenses don’t give you the technical knowledge directly, but they do build your overall knowledge (having built the item), which may help you to develop that tech in the future. Note that the price of a license is not fixed, it is on a slider, so they can be sold cheaply to your allies. Buying a licensed product can save you research points better spent elsewhere and allow you to acquire unique units not otherwise available to your country. Typical lincense purchases for Germany would be landing craft and marines from Japan. You can buy licenses from the Diplomacy screen, this costs 1 diplomatic point per license. You purchase the production license with money and then the item is placed in the production queue and built with your IC. The country that is paid for the license will see the payment as an increase in its stocks of money, not IC. You can't license-build a ship bigger than a cruiser.

In Hearts of Iron 4, money is no longer a resource. Additionally, the Production License system used the purchaser's own IC. In the historical example of French aircraft purchases, a major reason for buying American aircraft was the poor state of the French aviation industry. Buying production licenses for American aircraft would just substitute the type of aircraft that is not being built or delivered on time. Additionally, the new production system models efficiency. It would hardly be worth the effort to start a limited run of foreign aircraft considering how disruptive it would be to already limited production. Production lines would have to stop, retool and begin building with low efficiency.

In historical terms, it would be better for France to continue to build M.S.406 rather than purchase a production license for the Curtis Hawk 75.

In the late 1930s, a war with Germany was clearly looming, and the French Air Force placed an order for 1,000 airframes in March 1938. Morane-Saulnier was unable to produce anywhere near this number at their own factory, so a second line was set up at the nationalized factories of SNCAO at St. Nazaire converted to produce the type. Production began in late 1938, and the first production example flew on 29 January 1939. Deliveries were hampered more by the slow deliveries of the engines than by lack of airframes.

By April 1939, the production lines were delivering six aircraft a day, and when the war opened on 3 September 1939, production was at 11 a day with 535 in service. Production of the M.S.406 ended in March 1940, after the original order for 1,000 had been delivered to the French Air Force, and a further 77 for foreign users (30 for Finland and 45 for Turkey). Additional orders for Lithuania and Poland were canceled with the outbreak of the war.

Building their own aircraft, France had production difficulties but was able to double daily production. This efficiency would be lost if a production license was purchased and the line switched. Historically, France overcame this slow production by purchasing foreign aircraft which were built overseas and shipped to France.

Lend-Lease in HoI 4


In Hearts of Iron 4, something like this is possible. Equipment can be produced in foreign factories and delivered using the convoy system.

From Development Diary 36:
Lend Lease
First of all, we have the lend-lease, which for most ideologies is limited by the amount of World Tension in the world. What is beneficial with lend-lease is not just strengthening friends, you also gain XP from when your equipment is used.

This is very good to help allies, or future allies, if you have the industrial power. This can be done even before them being able to join your faction or you joining their wars. The most famous was the lend-lease that the USA did to Britain and Soviet Union both before and during the time they entered the war.
You can provide convoys for the target, so that the small nation you help out will not be forced to build convoys for a few years beforehand. Of course, those convoys can be sunk and the material lost. For more on this, we’ll talk in a future diary about sub-warfare.

You can lend-lease anything from airplanes to tanks, trucks, artillery and rifles. And you can decide if you want to send fixed amounts, or a percentage of your production each month.

This is a way to help minors to get access to materials they may not be able to build themselves.

This is an improvement over the Production License system. Now France is able to overcome their own production short comings and receive American aircraft, shipped using the convoy system. This system does a good job of representing US Lend-Lease to the UK and USSR. It also represents the US arming the Free French forces later in the war, which used mostly American equipment. It does not model pre-war aircraft purchases however:

  • Lend-Lease is governed by World Tension. In 1938 when aircraft orders began, World Tension may not be high enough to start exporting aircraft using the Lend-Lease system.
  • Lend-Lease is a unilateral contract, the producer does not receive anything in exchange. This does not model pre-war purchases which were more commercial in nature.
  • The Arsenal of Democracy speech and increased aid to the UK began in December 1940, after the Fall of France. In the 1930's aircraft purchases were not purely ideological. Why would a player or AI USA send aircraft to France for free in 1938?

We have seen in DD's that you can donate equipment to a country as Lend-Lease. Why purchase foreign models? Why produce aircraft for sale?

Trade in Hoi 4


From Development Diary 24:
Trading for a resource locks civilian factories for its trade, which limits the amount of constructions of other buildings you can do, but if you export resources you will gain use of foreign civilian factories.

You have no control over who you export to, except you will not trade with anyone you are at war with. The amount of resources that are assigned to export depends on your trade laws which let your government demand resources for your own production. Embargos can be placed through certain national focuses as well to block trade.

Getting resources from another nation requires convoys, and it is always the buyer of goods that has to provide the convoys. Of course, this is all done automatically.

Each nation has a trade influence with another nation, which is depending on distance and relations, but can also be modified by placing troops on their borders to threaten them to trade to you before other nations. Any puppet nations are always forced to give up full trade rights to their masters.

The trade system in Hearts of Iron 4 is almost ideal for representing the sale of military goods.

  • Trade is not governed by world tension.
  • Trade is bilateral. Both buyer and seller benefit from trade.
  • Trade is related to relations between nations.
  • Trade uses the convoy system to transport goods.
With a few tweaks, the existing trade system can model the sale of aircraft in the years leading up to WW2.

  1. Equipment can be used as a trade resource in exchange for civilian factories (or resources?).
  2. Equipment 'purchased' through the trade system is transported through convoys.
  3. Trade improves relations between trading nations. Whereas resources can be sold to whomever, it would make more sense to decide who to export aircraft to.
  4. Export laws determine how much is traded. The USAAF might prefer for the best new aircraft to fill their squadrons first.

The Historical Case


France ordered American aircraft in Historically Significant numbers to make up for the poor state of the French aviation industry. In 1940 15% of French aircraft orders were American types. While making up only 12.6% of the French Air Force single-seater fighter force, the H75 (Curtis Hawk) accounted for almost a third of the air-to-air kills during the 1940 Battle of France.

In May 1940, the French had 440 American aircraft, that number reached 550 in June. When France fell, American aircraft orders were sent to the UK instead, later augmented by US Lend-Lease.

French Aircraft Purchases March 1940
  • 200 - P-40
  • 200 - P-40D
  • 200 - P-39
  • 500 - P-38
  • 250 - Martin GM 187 (Baltimore)
  • 550 - Douglas DB-7 (Havoc; Boston I, II)
  • 60 - B-24 Liberator
  • 200 - Vultee Dive Bomber (Vengence)
  • 174 - Douglas SBD-3 (Dauntless)

While France had their own advanced types such as the Dewoitine D.520, design and production delays meant that these aircraft were often not ready for frontline service in a timely fashion. American aircraft orders expanded the Armée de l'air in the crucial years leading up to WW2. They made up a significant amount of the modern aircraft in the French inventory. Their combat performance far outweighed even that number.

Game Mechanics

Why would the USA 'sell' aircraft to France and the UK in game? Well, there are a couple mechanics that benefit them building aircraft for foreign powers.
  1. The US gets to use foreign civilian factories, which is helpful during the Great Depression.
  2. The US gains XP which allows them to build better variants for their own use.
  3. The US gets increased efficiency on production lines building aircraft for foreign clients.
  4. The US gets trade influence with whoever they are 'selling' to.
I think that this system provides an incentive for the historical sale of aircraft during the pre-war years.

In the historical example France benefits from purchasing aircraft to make up for their poor aviation industry. France has not advanced very far down the air tech tree, does not have enough XP for variants to make up for it, and France's military factories cannot produce enough to provide for an expanding Armée de l'air. In exchange for civilian factories, trade influence and possible rare materials, France gets American aircraft, and in large numbers. (Historically bases in colonial possessions like the later 'Destroyers for Bases' program were considered)

The USA benefits from increased production efficiency on their aircraft production lines. The USAAF is still small, and does not require many aircraft. Producing a surplus to sit idle in storage may not be worth the cost in material and IC and also the opportunity cost of producing something more immediately useful instead. By producing for foreign use the USA gets XP which can be used to improve their own aircraft. In the case of Curtis aircraft, foreign purchases of the Hawk Model 75 were far larger than purchases of the P-36 for USAAF use, 900 to 215. When France uses the Hawk 75 in combat in 1939, the US gets XP which is used to produce the improved P-40. Use of the P-36 and P-40 by France and the UK in 1940 in turn leads to better variants of Curtis aircraft so that by the time the USA enters the war in December 1941 they have a much improved aircraft.

Consider the evolution of Curtis Aircraft:

P-36A
Maximum speed: 313 mph (272 knots, 500 km/h) at 8,500 ft, 2,960 m
Cruise speed: 270 mph (235 knots, 432 km/h)
Range: 625 mi (543 nmi, 1,006 km) at 270 mph (419 km/h), 860 mi (748 nmi, 1,385 km) at 200 mph
Service ceiling: 32,700 ft (9,967 m)
Rate of climb: 3,400 ft/min (17 m/s)
Wing loading: 23.9 lb/ft² (116.8 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.186 hp/lb (306w/kg)
Armament: 1 x .30 cal, 1 x .50 cal, 250lbs bombs

P-40E
Maximum speed: 360 mph (310 kn, 580 km/h)
Cruise speed: 270 mph (235 kn, 435 km/h)
Range: 650 mi (560 nmi, 1,100 km)
Service ceiling: 29,000 ft (8,800 m)
Rate of climb: 2,100 ft/min (11 m/s)
Wing loading: 35.1 lb/ft² (171.5 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.14 hp/lb (228 W/kg)
Armament: 6 x .50 cal, 2000lbs bombs

Summary


The sale of military equipment in the pre-war years was historically significant. Using two existing systems in HoI 4, Trade and Lend-Lease it is possible to represent this exchange. There are gameplay incentives for both players and AI to participate in this exchange. Using military equipment as a Trade resource augments Lend-Lease, allows for the production and exchange of goods when World Tension is low, and allows for countries limited in research and production to arm themselves, at a cost. The seller receives Civilian Factories or Resources in exchange for produced equipment, gains XP for the combat use of this equipment, and improves their own Production Efficiency, without needing to stockpile or give equipment away for free as Lend-Lease when World Tension is higher.
 
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LordOfWar16

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Since there is no money in the game you cant purchase equipment. In the end WW2 was a war about resources not money, so they decided to remove traditional currencies from the game.

It should be noted tho, that you can send stockpiled equipment to a ally instead of just sending a set amount of production. That does model the purchase of pre-war models of aircraft and such indeed. Instead of sending a percentage of newly produced aircraft you could send a set amount of stockpiled outdated or out of production planes to your allies.
 
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Denkt

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Licensing is not in the game but it is kind of represented in the research slots as well as some national focuses. Pretty much everyone made use of license.

You can not sell your equipment, only give them away and even that have its limits (you can not lend lease if the world seems to be a peaceful place).

USA may not be able to sell equipment but it can get alot from selling resources to other countries.
 

leeuw

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I hope that selling/buying products in exchange of resources and/or civilian IC's will be added in a late patch of the game.
Land-lease is something different from a market exchange, since this is a way to support friendly nation in a war without a direct intervention.
 
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Since there is no money in the game you cant purchase equipment. In the end WW2 was a war about resources not money, so they decided to remove traditional currencies from the game.

It should be noted tho, that you can send stockpiled equipment to a ally instead of just sending a set amount of production. That does model the purchase of pre-war models of aircraft and such indeed. Instead of sending a percentage of newly produced aircraft you could send a set amount of stockpiled outdated or out of production planes to your allies.

Licensing is not in the game but it is kind of represented in the research slots as well as some national focuses. Pretty much everyone made use of license.

You can not sell your equipment, only give them away and even that have its limits (you can not lend lease if the world seems to be a peaceful place).

USA may not be able to sell equipment but it can get alot from selling resources to other countries.

As i read the OP he already knows that but makes a suggestion to improve the system. Land_lease is WT based so early on not possible. I would like a option to sell equipment for other equipment or ressources. Has to be weighted thing for the ai, but between players this could be interesting.
 
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LordOfWar16

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As i read the OP he already knows that but makes a suggestion to improve the system. Land_lease is WT based so early on not possible. I would like a option to sell equipment for other equipment or ressources. Has to be weighted thing for the ai, but between players this could be interesting.
selling military equipment is something that should be limited by world tension aswell.
 

Frosted Vert

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Since there is no money in the game you cant purchase equipment. In the end WW2 was a war about resources not money, so they decided to remove traditional currencies from the game.

It should be noted tho, that you can send stockpiled equipment to a ally instead of just sending a set amount of production. That does model the purchase of pre-war models of aircraft and such indeed. Instead of sending a percentage of newly produced aircraft you could send a set amount of stockpiled outdated or out of production planes to your allies.

Licensing is not in the game but it is kind of represented in the research slots as well as some national focuses. Pretty much everyone made use of license.

You can not sell your equipment, only give them away and even that have its limits (you can not lend lease if the world seems to be a peaceful place).

USA may not be able to sell equipment but it can get alot from selling resources to other countries.

I've updated the OP to better explain the integration of the trade system. No money is required! This suggestion would simply make military equipment a tradeable resource. The only difference from the already existing trade system is deciding who can purchase equipment from your nation.

A USA aligned with the Allies but unable to Lend-Lease due to low World Tension, or unwilling to give away aircraft for free would simply make aircraft available for purchase by the Allies in exchange for civilian factories, or possibly resources.

This is incentive both for human players and the AI. It is a bilateral exchange, not a freebie.
 
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I Like the idea about selling equiptment, but maybe limit it to how many you producted last month of a specific type, maybe set a value that says how many items you Can buy depending on the amount produced
set the value to 20%
So if you produced 100 Fighters last month then you can ondt buy 20 Fighters
It Could be used to help Nations Like france, but not like lend-lease where u Can get unlimited numbers
 
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LordOfWar16

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I personaly dont think it would fit into the game and would destroy the balance. Hindsight would make this feature prone to being abused, unless it is a open market like the resource trade where every nation can buy equipment. Another problem is that there arent stockpiles of resources, so you would need to give away a constant stream of resources. Trading them for resources seems to be a bad idea for HoI IV aswell because of the reasons above. It would literaly be lend-lease where the origin country benefits from it even more than from lend-lease itself. They would not only get the experience back but also would get tons of resources. This would ultimately end up in nations simply buying their equipment than producing it themself.

HoI IV is about the war, not about being the worlds arms dealer.
 
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KaeI

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The country buyingthe goods could have a bonus in research. If I buy a better plane or tank, i could use it for my troops or be reversed engineered. In the last case, this could lead to tension between countrie. or you can't sell your most advanced equipment.
 
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Jwits

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I think you should be able trade all equipment as an agreement to receive resources. An example would be one 10 planes for two weeks of 5 oil. It would be a high price, but it could be way to dump older models for increased resources in the new production lines.
 
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aruon

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i see true military trade being added in in an eventual patch/DLC. but it won't be this year.
 
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Won't work. You don't sell your resources in trade agreements you control, you put them on the open market and forget about them. You are forced to put 80% for sale with the standard Trade Laws.

But resources are produced at pretty much the same level every day, regardless of what the player does. There are some techs which improve extraction, but it is a long-term upward trend. You can't switch the trade off/on, and you can't embargo or favour a country. You can't even decide to keep some of the 80% of resources if you feel you have a higher need of them. You can only change your Trade Laws, assuming you are allowed.

This means that Germany could have to sell more than half of all of it's military production to any minor that wants to buy it.

While you don't control your resource production, you control your military production. You might as well produce only civilian factories in 1936 and produce no equipment, until you are able to change your Trade Laws. The most restrictive Closed Economy means you keep everything. Democracies can't choose that while at peace, so you then get a mobilising Germany frantically buying tanks from the US in 1939.

I'm not saying some sort of arms trade is totally impossible, but not using the existing trade mechanisms.
 
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Frosted Vert

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I'm not saying some sort of arms trade is totally impossible, but not using the existing trade mechanisms.

I agree. I also think the Trade system is really good for resources. If military equipment was treated like any resource, you're right it wouldn't work. My minor quibble would be selecting the buyers of equipment and selecting which equipment is for sale. Even today, the F-35 program was designed to be sold to many member countries but the F-22 was forbidden to be exported at all.
 
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panzerzombie

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It could work using the existing trade.

Currently you are only getting something by offering CivilianFactories as currency.

Why not having a sort of "trading account" .... the daily trading points could be 1 CF= 10 points and each unit of resource you are automatically offering via trade law amounts to 0,1-0,5 points
( arbitralily lower than 1 point so trade does not give too much bonus, and you get a nice bonus (+output+buildspeed+research) by more open trade laws anyway ).

Now if you use this "account" you could buy things ( daily, not with an option to send a batch like with lend lease ). The cost of each unit would depend on IC, total resource this units consumed and perhaps on tech level ( state of the art equipment ofc proportionally much more expensive than old junk and only given to friendly states ).
 
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KaeI

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Military should be trade via diplomatic action. You need to have a minimum good relation, maybe a event where you can loss some national unity if you sold to a country in war or civil in fonction of your ideology by propagande or action of other country, too bad we don't have the same number of ideology that HOI2.

Don't know if it's in game, but technology should be trade not necessary blueprint but more like a cooperation. I think IRL German visited Akagi and some Uboot were sent in japan.
 
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