Puppets

[Enravota]

AFAIK, as Ashikaga social order fell apart and lower clans displaced the older higher clans, some of them were used as puppets to legitimize their rule in a given area. AFAIK the Oda used a Shiba figurehead (hell, even the emperor was more or less a figurehead for the shoguns), so I wonder how that will be represented in game.

 

[safferli]

Well, you can have clans as vassals, isn't this what you're thinking of?

 

[Enravota]

Well, you can have clans as vassals, isn't this what you're thinking of?

No, because the vassal is beneath you on the feudal ladder, while the figurehead is above you.

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

No, because the vassal is beneath you on the feudal ladder, while the figurehead is above you.

What he means is the player can control vassals. Are you asking if the vassal can overthrow the leige?

 

[Enravota]

What he means is the player can control vassals. Are you asking if the vassal can overthrow the leige?

Vassals overthrowing their lieges is the core of the game .

Let me give an example. Shiba were the initial shugos of Owari, which waned in power and control of their province and were replaced by the Oda who acted using the Shiba political clout and nominal power, while still being theoretically vassals of the Shiba. Eventually the Shiba were removed and the Oda declared contracts and treaties aquired in Shiba's name to be null and void. Similarly the Ashikaga shoguns after the Onin wars were controlled by the Hosokawa. What I'm asking is whether one will be able to usurp one's liege without removing him from office (thus making one's liege a puppet to the appropriate vassal).

 

[unmerged(19621)]

You're defenitly right. Such a feature(how ever it would look like) would be amazing.

The Onin War was not about gaining more territory, the main targets were to take controll of "puppets"(such as the Shogun itself, and major clans) mostly by their own vassalls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8Cnin_War

But I guess it's impossible to implement a gameingine, that considers all the cercumstainces of Japan at that time?..


EDIT:

Will it be at least possible for a vassall who has become too powerful compared to his leader, to inherite the land,power of the former dominating clan?

 

[Drakken]

Good question. Puppets were paramount in that time.

Even Emperors, shoguns, regents, and Lords of domains would officially abdicate to place their successor on the throne, but continue to rule from behind the scenes. That was the basis of the insei (cloistered rule) system used by generations of Emperors.

 

[RedRooster81]

It might be a matter of creative scripting or it might actually be impossible. If you could somehow make it so that you get the events usually meant for your puppet, using some kind of scripting flag. Just an idea, guys, but might be possible.

 

[Drakken]

The thing is that usually, the "Daimyo" would be the heir, but the Retired Lord would remain the Clan Leader.

From what I know from Sengoku, this has been resolved : The player can give most if not all of his domain lands to his Heir as a Daimyo while keeping the "Retired" Lord as Clan Leader.