Puppets & resource/supply throughput rules

[gunstickuncle]

I never figured this out completely, thus there are a couple of things I would like to know for sure:

There are a couple of situations that seem similar, but appear to have different results:
1) JAP - MAN
2) ENG - IRQ
3) ITA - ETH

4) GER - POL

I. Transportation through puppets
From my experience, resources and supplies get transported through Manchukuo for 1). Japanese owned and controlled Beijing can be supplied from Dalian or Korea, as it appears. Resources vice versa
How ist that different from 2), where UK delivers supplies to Tel-Aviv, but neither can they be transported to al-Kuwait via IRQ puppet land route nor resources vv?

II. Supply from puppets for provinces cut off from depot
In case of 3), ETH can supply the ITA territories when Suez is closed. So obviously puppets can supply a master who has no supply route if there is a passable land route. That condition however should enable many puppets to kick in whenever a supply line to a master's territory is missing.

III.
This is where we have real impact on the game balance. If GER could puppet POL (instead of Danzig), it would benefit from MR pact (cores, NAP, relations) and deny the Soviets all of their events and claims (E Poland, Winter War, Bessarabia, Baltic states). As a result, Germany ends up with no land border with SU and a Poland puppet between them. So if Germany invades the USSR from Polish soil, the conquered provinces go to German control, without having a supply route from Berlin. So does supply come from Berlin, from Warsaw, or not at all?

IV.
If you as master get supplied from an adjacent puppet, and they have significantly inferior supply throughput due to techs and modifiers, which 'tax' will you pay on whose ground?

This is all derived from observation so far, the wiki doesn't say a lot of useful things about puppet behaviour. So if something is just wrong, feel free to correct me. Hope you can help me to gain some insight in puppet& supply stuff.

Thanks in advance

 

[Pro_Consul]

I. Transportation through puppets
From my experience, resources and supplies get transported through Manchukuo for 1). Japanese owned and controlled Beijing can be supplied from Dalian or Korea, as it appears. Resources vice versa
How ist that different from 2), where UK delivers supplies to Tel-Aviv, but neither can they be transported to al-Kuwait via IRQ puppet land route nor resources vv?

As far as I know, you are not literally able to move supplies through a puppet's territory. Dalian and Korea are both Japanese-owned and have ports to which Japanese convoys can deliver supplies into the mainland logistical network. That is not the same as, for example, trying to supply units invading USSR from Manchukuo where no land route to the Japanese network exists.

II. Supply from puppets for provinces cut off from depot
In case of 3), ETH can supply the ITA territories when Suez is closed. So obviously puppets can supply a master who has no supply route if there is a passable land route. That condition however should enable many puppets to kick in whenever a supply line to a master's territory is missing.

Are you certain that is what's happening? Have you checked the supply screen and unit status to trace where the supplies are actually coming from? I ask because I was totally unaware of this mechanic.

III.
This is where we have real impact on the game balance. If GER could puppet POL (instead of Danzig), it would benefit from MR pact (cores, NAP, relations) and deny the Soviets all of their events and claims (E Poland, Winter War, Bessarabia, Baltic states). As a result, Germany ends up with no land border with SU and a Poland puppet between them. So if Germany invades the USSR from Polish soil, the conquered provinces go to German control, without having a supply route from Berlin. So does supply come from Berlin, from Warsaw, or not at all?

Boy, that would indeed impact balance...with a sledgehammer. Gaming the event chain like that is as bad as another nation annexing Austria early in order to derail all the decisions and events which give Germany so much of their desperately needed manpower. It's an "I Win" button.

IV.
If you as master get supplied from an adjacent puppet, and they have significantly inferior supply throughput due to techs and modifiers, which 'tax' will you pay on whose ground?

You don't pay any tax at all; the puppet pays it. The logistics engine sums up the total supply consumption of the units you have drawing from the puppet's network. It then sets up an invisible, uninterruptible convoy which delivers that amount to the puppet's stockpile every day. But it does not factor in what supply tax the puppet must pay in delivering supply to your units in its territory. I found this out the hard way by deploying massive US forces into Scotland. I found that I was steadily depleting the British supply stockpile, when I thought I was covering my units' consumption. When I moved my armies down and surrounded London with superstacks, suddenly the drain on UK supplies more or less ended, as all supply taxes were pretty much reduced to just one province long routes with unlimited throughput. I could have zeroed out the tax by placing all my units in London, but I didn't feel the need to get that nitpicky about it. I figured I was keeping some English lorry drivers happily employed without being too much of a jerk about it, which was good enough.

 

[gunstickuncle]

Thx so far.

Are you certain that is what's happening? Have you checked the supply screen and unit status to trace where the supplies are actually coming from? I ask because I was totally unaware of this mechanic.

Yes I am, Italian ships at Edd being supplied from Addis Abeba. To be honest, also was unwaware of that until last week.

As for Poland paying the price, I would be fine with poland having to pay the excessive transportation tax. The were not going to build a modern army capable of punching Russia; and more of their units might even be a drain on my units' supplies. About the invulnerable convoy, I knew that one, but good to know that you drain on the puppets supplies anyway. However there is the issue of puppet's giving you everything above 1000 resources. Because if they limit theirselves to a max stockpile of 1000 supplies, they might not be able to supply a Barbarossa tax at all times. Even if I send most of it back, there might be shortages.

 

[Pro_Consul]

Yes I am, Italian ships at Edd being supplied from Addis Abeba. To be honest, also was unwaware of that until last week.

Aha! That is very different. Ships are supplied from whatever port provinces they are based at, regardless of where they are physically located at any given time. And ships can always be based from any allied port. Sounds like that fleet got caught on the wrong side of the canal when war began and had no other basing option outside Ethiopia.

However there is the issue of puppet's giving you everything above 1000 resources. Because if they limit theirselves to a max stockpile of 1000 supplies, they might not be able to supply a Barbarossa tax at all times. Even if I send most of it back, there might be shortages.

I don't think the limit applies to supplies, just to raw materials. I could be wrong about that, though, so don't quote me. In any case, it is never a good idea to put an entire army or army group at the mercy of a minor ally's logistical network. It can leave you with absolutely no recourse if something goes wrong, since the only party likely able to fix certain problems will be that minor ally, and they are unlikely to do a thing as long as their OWN forces are not hurting from it.

 

[gunstickuncle]

They are physically located at Edd or adjacent sea provinces. And if ships at my cut-off port province can be supplied from a puppet's capital, so should the ground troops.

And it was done on purpose, so told me it would work, so I tried...it's only Mk I and II starting subs anyway, more like a harassment tool than a real weapon.

And yes depending on minors/puppets to play crucial roles in epic operations like Barbarossa is dangerous. However, I do have a lvl 10 port in Koenigsberg, and Riga has a nice port, too.
Since I cannot walk for a while due to my latest sports injury, I may have time to do some test runs on the issue of trans-Poland Barbarossa. If I get any solid results, I will report in case you are interested.

 

[feye1]

Raiding with submarines on Horn of Africa! Sounds like someone stole my old strategy!

Ethiopia does supply ground forces too. Did use the Italian ports for a small offensive once as Japan in multiplayer.

 

[Pro_Consul]

They are physically located at Edd or adjacent sea provinces. And if ships at my cut-off port province can be supplied from a puppet's capital, so should the ground troops.

Like I said, it makes zero difference where the ships are physically located. The question is where are they based. You can see it on the fleet's status card. If they are based, not just located, at an port that is currently under Italian control, but the supply mapmode shows them drawing their supplies from Addis Ababa, then that is what I am looking for confirmation about.

However, I do have a lvl 10 port in Koenigsberg, and Riga has a nice port, too.

My prediction is that you will find those ports inadequate to your needs, especially in the southern sector of your front. But yes, I would be quite interested in your actual findings once you have a chance to run that experimental invasion strategy. Sounds like a cool idea to test.

 

[gunstickuncle]

Are these the droids you are looking for?

I might have one from another game (as Italy), where you can also see the ships, but basically as you already mentioned their physical presence is not important as long as they are based and supplied via Addis Abeba -> Edd.

Unfortunately my puppet Poland experiment seems to have failed it's purpose. The Poles are not maintaining any supply network at all.....they are draining it all the way from Berlin.

And Koenigsberg/Riga are kind of useless in that plan, as i realized when I looked at the map. Because I already have a land connection to Koenigsberg as a result of acquire core. The problem thus lies further in the East. And yes I am likely to fail in the upcoming Barbarossa if Poland is to maintain my supply lines. I'll see about that tomorrow.

 

[Pro_Consul]

Are these the droids you are looking for?

Yes! Good screenie there. Now the question I am wondering about is whether that is an across the board facet of logistics/puppets in general, or an exception built in specifically for the historical Italy/Ethiopia situation. I will have to keep a much closer eye on such matters in my own games to see what other previously unnoticed oddities might be lurking in there.

Unfortunately my puppet Poland experiment seems to have failed it's purpose. The Poles are not maintaining any supply network at all.....they are draining it all the way from Berlin.

Now that I certainly did not anticipate.

The problem thus lies further in the East. And yes I am likely to fail in the upcoming Barbarossa if Poland is to maintain my supply lines. I'll see about that tomorrow.

Yeah, and having to push the entirety of your supplies for ALL invasion forces through that much narrower corridor along the coast is likely to seriously throttle your net throughput before you even really start to push the front lines eastward in earnest. But it will still be interesting to see exactly what happens.

 

[gunstickuncle]

I have also taken Lithuania (since I stopped SOV event chain, I was not in a hurry).
My army already being in Poland, France and Belgium had to wait one more week.

I still do not have a land border shared with USSR myself, but if I need one, I can always blitz through Latvia. It's very comfortable to know that you have interrupted the SOV plan for Eastern Europe domination and the Baltic states are not going anywhere (except into the Reich sooner or later^^). The Finns and Romanians have already expressed their gratitude. It is definitely an empire of gameyness.