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50shadesofgreen

Second Lieutenant
Nov 5, 2018
104
72
In Japan game I took Australia and NZ as puppets. Now I have tag switched about a month later in the game, they look broke. Little resources mean they are unable to fuel their IC and so not making supplies to feed the troops or even build consumer goods to fight dissent. I gave both 1000 of each resources, and finally got a little gift of surpluses from NZ.

My questions are.
1) Is this an issue with all puppets created?
2) Should they function normally now?
3) Are there any other tweaks I should make before switching back.
 

Corugi

Corporal
Feb 25, 2021
32
31
Wish I could help with specifics, but to be honest I have encountered so many issues with puppets in the past that I entirely discount them. I gave up trying to figure out what the problems were. To the extent that I try to avoid puppets altogether, I just annex everything whenever I can. The exception being Ethiopia. Because who wants to garrison Ethiopia?

Even when you start with puppets I found I could encounter situations that seemed to defy any sense. I assume its just a bug. For example Russia starts with two puppets. One of them, Mongolia, iirc, showed an excess of supplies. Something like 30. So I traded them for 20. Done deal. Continuous border. No wars going on. Only the screen showed the trade as inactive "Not enough supplies". But they still show an excess of 30. So I broke the trade and tried again with 10. Done deal. Only the same story. "Not enough supplies" although they still showed a solid 30 excess. A year later, yup, still the same story, even though I gave them lots of energy, steel, rares, all of which they seemed to receive. I decided it was just easier to invade Poland if I wanted free stuff.

Possibly in your case the tag switch might muck things up. I really dont know, but at a guess I would say once you tag switch the game will penalize you accordingly for not being an AI. So your production and resources as NZ/Aussie will be much lower than as when they are AI.

So in conclusion.
1) I dont know.
2) I think so, since they are now back under AI control.
3) If you are trying to boost them up as being better fighting partners I am not sure. I am guessing you would want them to pump out some nice land units and transports, rather than build an endless array of coastal forts. The AI usually makes a complete meal of things once you give it any sort of control, but you could try lining up some good stuff in their production queues, increase their officer ratio, and then tag switch a month or two later to see if they are still producing what you want them to. To add: If you are relying on them giving you expeditionary forces then good luck. I find it takes way too long, if ever, to get decent expeditionary forces out of a puppet, and the units they give are more of a liability than an asset ( the exception being late game UK which does get some useful garrison/front line forces from its Commonwealth allies, and some decent front line units from the USA )
 
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Paglia

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In Japan game I took Australia and NZ as puppets. Now I have tag switched about a month later in the game, they look broke. Little resources mean they are unable to fuel their IC and so not making supplies to feed the troops or even build consumer goods to fight dissent. I gave both 1000 of each resources, and finally got a little gift of surpluses from NZ.

My questions are.
1) Is this an issue with all puppets created?
2) Should they function normally now?
3) Are there any other tweaks I should make before switching back.


All puppets give all their resources to their master beyond their current needs... so they do not accumulate... but the mechanics seems ineffective as they don't keep enough to grow...

In ost game, you'd rather have them as allies... but there is no function for it

So, yeah, in a sense, mechanic is broken
 
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50shadesofgreen

Second Lieutenant
Nov 5, 2018
104
72
I was wrong to suspect that the puppet was not giving surplus to it's master. Once their stockpile reaches over 1000 I now see that the excess is handed over straight away. What threw me was that I was checking the From Puppets and To Overlord lines on Resource Flows page. For an overseas puppet they are actually shown as Convoyed Out on the page of the puppet, and appear as a convoy for the Master/Owner.

The puppets economy is screwed though, and will appear to need a regular "boost" in what they lack. For instance Australia has plenty of energy and metals but only 4 rares to power its industry.

@Corugi, I'm going to delete their fort builds and swap for convoys. Seems fair as I promise not to invade them and I did sink those ships!
 
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j_k_k

First Lieutenant
Apr 2, 2015
230
85
If someone used the game console to grant a puppet resources, money, or whatever, I would not consider it cheating within reason provided one deducted the same amount from the puppeteer's stockpiles. That's really the way it should normally work: they agree to a subordinate form of self-government without the right to make foreign policy, but if the puppeteer wants them strong, they might need more than a little help. Same for a minor ally, since the game won't allow an outright gift.
 
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50shadesofgreen

Second Lieutenant
Nov 5, 2018
104
72
Corugi absolutely not. The evidence is far from clear as to where the advantage lies if it's the puppets resources that you want. I'm laying out three scenarios below for puppet Australia, but they are all varied by which game, which patch, occupation laws and tech levels.

Aus effective IC of 30. Energy 67, metal 34, rares 4.

a) Taking them over gives you a fraction of their IC and resources. I showed 13 IC. After fuelling this I gained marginal excess of metal (7?) after fuelling the gained IC, but was topping up their rares.

b) Puppet theoretically would give you +7 energy, +4 metal. But you would only get these shipped to master AFTER the stored level rose to 1000 from 0. Which would be after a 250 day wait for the 4 daily metal.

c) Actual broken puppet. Only has 4 rare so only fuels 8 IC. Only uses 16 of its energy and 8 metal. This gives master 51 energy and 26 metal daily. Those metals arrive after 40 days.

If it's the metal you want, and you want it now, then annex is the way to go. C gives more, but only after the delay. You can only know to make that choice if you know that part of the game is broke (exploit?).
 
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Kovax

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I find it takes way too long, if ever, to get decent expeditionary forces out of a puppet, and the units they give are more of a liability than an asset ( the exception being late game UK which does get some useful garrison/front line forces from its Commonwealth allies, and some decent front line units from the USA )
That's funny, I got some very useful garrison/front line forces after I puppeted the UK (playing HUN). Of course, by that point in the game I didn't need any.

As pointed out, you only get resources above 1000, so if the puppet only gets 1-2 of a resource above what it needs for its own IC, it'll take well over a year before you see any of it. While you might only get 13 IC out of their 30 if you annex, that will eventually rise toward 15 (an even half) as Revolt Risk gradually declines over several years, although the game probably won't last long enough for you to get the full 50%. Resources will also increase marginally over time toward the listed value for the occupation policy being used.
 
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50shadesofgreen

Second Lieutenant
Nov 5, 2018
104
72
Why does this happen ????????????

Philippines puppet has supply depot in home country and can stockpile supplies.

Nepal has a stockpile in Rangoon (UK owned India) and sends all its supplies away.

Iraq has a stockpile in Alexandria, in UK/Egypt and also waves goodbye to supplies towards that port. It has its own port in Al Basra!!!

Yemen also has stockpile in another's port. Yemeni supply leaves its border, cross UK owned Arabia and accumulate in another puppet, Oman! Oman gets a lovely stockpile, Yemen not.

Why???????????

(Nepal and Bhutan make sense as they probably fight in the Rangoon area at some point, so they can live off UK supply net)
 

Wraith11B

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Welcome to the Paradox, my friend.
 
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Kovax

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Truly broken is about the only description possible for Hungary's supply woes in FtM or TFH, at least until one of the later patches. As soon as they joined the Axis, their supply system was merged with Germany's, even though they were NOT a puppet. Basically, playing Hungary, you would end up with divisions out of supply in your own capital. They were specifically patched, but apparently there are numerous other similar cases which weren't, as listed by 50shadesofgreen.

HOI4 apparently solved the broken finger completely by amputating the whole arm. No supply lines. Duh.
 
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50shadesofgreen

Second Lieutenant
Nov 5, 2018
104
72
The Hungary thing does sound bad. I need to look myself at some point as that changes the Germany options up to Barbarossa quite significantly!

Now, does that also happen to Romania when they join? Also is there an easy edit fix for these minors and puppets?
 

Kovax

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Those issues were fixed by Paradox for Hungary in one of the last patches for TFH, because HUN was all but unplayable before the correction. It's VERY playable now, since I've managed to drive my own invasion corridor to Stalingrad and occupy the Caucasus in one game (Germany collapsed, so I still lost), and annexed the UK (by invading and occupying the British Isles - minus 2 provinces because GER got in on the act at the last minute) in another.

Unfortunately, there are apparently related issues for other countries which were never addressed.
 
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50shadesofgreen

Second Lieutenant
Nov 5, 2018
104
72
Despite editing saves to make places like Basra seem the better choice (port + infra) over Alexandria, I can't seem to make a puppet choose a domestic port as a hub.

I can make the UK choose another UK port as a hub, which Iraq will copy.

I can change the Korea hub from Hamhung to Pusan. But I can't get Manchukuo to choose its own Huludao port?

I've also failed to make Yemen switch from the Omani port.

As these all fixed in the exe somehow?

(Update. By consol conquering MAN as JAP followed by releasing Manchukuo as a puppet i achieved momentary success by having MAN pick a domestic remote inland province as its hub. Meanwhile the Japanese in China picked Manchukuos port? Within 24 or 48 hours they both switched back to same old boring Hamhung)
 
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50shadesofgreen

Second Lieutenant
Nov 5, 2018
104
72
I changed Manchukuo from a puppet of Japan, to an alliance instead. This seems to have sorted out the supply issue (its depot becomes its capital) and seems to make Manchukuo more productive.

Is there any reason NOT to do this, other than forego the excess resources over 1000 I get for free?
 

j_k_k

First Lieutenant
Apr 2, 2015
230
85
I changed Manchukuo from a puppet of Japan, to an alliance instead. This seems to have sorted out the supply issue (its depot becomes its capital) and seems to make Manchukuo more productive.

Is there any reason NOT to do this, other than forego the excess resources over 1000 I get for free?
I don't see any reason not to. It's not an abuse of the game. Making them an ally rather than a puppet has its tradeoffs and is within the legitimate power of Imperial Japan. It means they can now trade independently, for example. Also means a limited war might not now include them unless you call them to arms, if I understand the mechanics correctly.
 
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50shadesofgreen

Second Lieutenant
Nov 5, 2018
104
72
The trade is a very good point!

I'm happy doing it from a moral/honesty viewpoint. I'm wondering whether there's any practical game-breaking issues? I'm also wondering whether to apply this rule to ALL puppets? I just can't see a reason not to, although there must have been one? I have managed most wars without too much, if any puppet help?
 

j_k_k

First Lieutenant
Apr 2, 2015
230
85
Can't think of what the gamebreaking issues might be. It's not like either puppets or minor allies do much good, unless their countries are invaded or you decide to tag-switch and have them grant you an expeditionary force. Seems to me like it's a choice between one irrelevance or the other. I can easily see Manchukuo granting Japan an expeditionary corps or two doing garrison duty against unrest in China.
 
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