Puppet vs. Annex

[Aretii]

I confess that I didn't really follow the explanation in today's WWW. What's the rationale for annexing vs. puppeting? When is one better than the other?

I have no experience with HOI3 or Vic2; just CK2 and EU4.

 

[Number 7]

i'm assuming puppetting will have lower world tension implications while still letting you buy resources off them with highest priority. Once the war is really in full swing 100% tension and all the majors going at it, there wont be much of a reason to hold back other than "i want the borders to look this way, and my 2 million soldiers agree with me". As annexing will give you more personal benefits such as the resources directly, factories, dockyards etc etc.

 

[panzerzombie]

Iirc, a puppeted nation in HOI3 traded its surplus resources automatically to the conqueror, you got rid of the province unrest ( which was a real PITA ) and the puppet slowly rebuilt its army, whereas you couldn´t get much out of the manpower of the annexed nation.

Now, with lendlease you could probably get a decent army out of the puppet in a short time.

 

[LordOfWar16]

Puppeting is alot better if you want to manage the World Tension more and dont want it to instantly peak at 100%, which means the allies and other democratic nations are basicly free to do whatever they want against you. The question if you could integrate puppets later on never was answered by Daniel or Jake sadly, but i kinda doubt that this will be possible.

However, puppets basicly function similar to vassals in EUIV for example, in that they will automaticly join your war if you attack or are attacked. They of course also suffer from alot less uprisings in the country since they are technicly on paper independent. They will also preffer trading with you over outsiders, which means you will get alot more resources available for trade from them than other nations.

 

[Zaku]

i'm assuming puppetting will have lower world tension implications while still letting you buy resources off them with highest priority. Once the war is really in full swing 100% tension and all the majors going at it, there wont be much of a reason to hold back other than "i want the borders to look this way, and my 2 million soldiers agree with me". As annexing will give you more personal benefits such as the resources directly, factories, dockyards etc etc.

Now seriously, what's more important in a peace deal then faboluosly looking borders?

 

[LordOfWar16]

Now seriously, what's more important in a peace deal then faboluosly looking borders?

weapons, tanks, planes and ships to expand them?

 

[Oriflamme]

I've never been a world-conqueror myself. I'd rather have a collection of protectorates and satellite states (a-la the British Empire) than a giant unrealistic superstate that spans multiple continents. Therefore, when I play Japan and defeat China, I'll only annex the choice bits like the northeastern part of the North China Plain, along with the various coastal cities, and leave the rest to warlord satellite states.

The only exception is Germany, where I will take ALL the lebensraum.

 

[LordOfWar16]

I've never been a world-conqueror myself. I'd rather have a collection of protectorates and satellite states (a-la the British Empire) than a giant unrealistic superstate that spans multiple continents. Therefore, when I play Japan and defeat China, I'll only annex the choice bits like the northeastern part of the North China Plain, along with the various coastal cities, and leave the rest to warlord satellite states.

The only exception is Germany, where I will take ALL the lebensraum.

agreed. I would love if they added the possibility to create custom puppets like in EUIV and assign them land to administrate, or have more releaseable puppets in the game than in HoI III.

This is what the plan was for germany in WW2. As you can see germany itself didnt really had intend to stretch themself out that much directly, but rather put said civil administrations ("Reichskommisariate" / "R.K.") in charge of the conquered land. They would basicly function kinda like colonies, in that there is an "Reichskommissar" i.e govenor in charge.

I would like to do something similar, since it is a: pretty unrealistic to stretch out that far and b: makes managing stuff alot easier. I rather take only some directly and put civil administrations in charge in the rest. That was actually possible in HoI II: Darkest Hour, granted it is an standalone mod, but still would be awesome if that would be possible in HoI IV. The Victoria 2 Kaiserreich mod had them in aswell and they could be integrated later on aswell.

 

[Friedericus Rex]

You can release satellites and force the principal to cede territory to them, so something similar to this should be possible.

 

[LordOfWar16]

You can release satellites and force the principal to cede territory to them, so something similar to this should be possible.

Yes, but those were the prior to the integration into china independant warlords and cliques. Those were basicly countries that were annexed by china via an event chain, that you could release again as puppets. Granted the WWW MP built was very old, but back then there was no such option to release the ukraine for example.

 

[Bugnr01]

It was a matter of what you want in hoi3 and i think it will be similar in hoi IV. More for yourself or more for your faction?

You are not able to core in hoi, so you stick with some penalties which the pupped dont have because its their territory.
Iirc in hoi 3 you get about the half of ic, resources and manpower (because not your core) and a hit to supply transport (because of unrest) for yourself while a pupped got 100% of everything.

If you won aganst romania as germany you have to decide if you want 35 of oil for yourself or the 70 for your faction (primary for romania but you got the surplus). The same is for ic and manpower
An other point could be supply. In an undeveloped area it could be wise to make a pupped because it got more supply with the same infrastructure an is so more capable of defending this area.

 

[LordOfWar16]

It was a matter of what you want in hoi3 and i think it will be similar in hoi IV. More for yourself or more for your faction?

You are not able to core in hoi, so you stick with some penalties which the pupped dont have because its their territory.
Iirc in hoi 3 you get about the half of ic, resources and manpower (because not your core) and a hit to supply transport (because of unrest) for yourself while a pupped got 100% of everything.

If you won aganst romania as germany you have to decide if you want 35 of oil for yourself or the 70 for your faction (primary for romania but you got the surplus). The same is for ic and manpower
An other point could be supply. In an undeveloped area it could be wise to make a pupped because it got more supply with the same infrastructure an is so more capable of defending this area.

puppets also will reserve the most resources for trade with their overlords and faction members. That way you basicly get those resources on a detour. Granted you give them civilian factories in exchange, but those will be used to build up your puppet, so it is basicly a win-win situation.

Just dont let iran snatch the soviet oil and close down their economy while you arent looking

 

[Antless]

I would assume that you would try to take any industrial centers and important ressources, while leaving the rest to the puppet to get manpower out of. However, one thing to remember as a facist nation is that you can declare wars on anyone you are directly bordering as long as you are already at war with a major. As such, fully annexing early conquests to get a wider reach on who you can attack easily is probably a smart choice.

In the WWW, Daniel needed a puppet to create a new faction, which is why he did it.

 

[kviiri]

However, puppets basicly function similar to vassals in EUIV for example, in that they will automaticly join your war if you attack or are attacked. They of course also suffer from alot less uprisings in the country since they are technicly on paper independent. They will also preffer trading with you over outsiders, which means you will get alot more resources available for trade from them than other nations.

There are no uprisings, and annexed territory doesn't have unrest.

 

[Murmeldjuret]

One good point is that puppet territory does not cost war exhaustion or warscore if you lose it to war, so puppet state buffers also have a purpose.

 

[Harada.Taro]

I never puppet and always annex. Why ? Puppet doesn't develop infrastructures so they are a gap in supplying, making it longer for your troop to go through... So I annex.

 

[kviiri]

I believe (but don't know for sure) that keeping puppets instead of annexing will provide a numerically superior army in the short term at very least - a bit like EU4, where a vassal tends to provide a larger army than the same area annexed.

 

[Evan05]

agreed. I would love if they added the possibility to create custom puppets like in EUIV and assign them land to administrate, or have more releaseable puppets in the game than in HoI III.

This is what the plan was for germany in WW2. As you can see germany itself didnt really had intend to stretch themself out that much directly, but rather put said civil administrations ("Reichskommisariate" / "R.K.") in charge of the conquered land. They would basicly function kinda like colonies, in that there is an "Reichskommissar" i.e govenor in charge.I would like to do something similar, since it is a: pretty unrealistic to stretch out that far and b: makes managing stuff alot easier. I rather take only some directly and put civil administrations in charge in the rest. That was actually possible in HoI II: Darkest Hour, granted it is an standalone mod, but still would be awesome if that would be possible in HoI IV. The Victoria 2 Kaiserreich mod had them in aswell and they could be integrated later on aswell.

Keep in mind the Reichskommissariat was intended only as a transitional administrative division be later fully integrated into the Reich, since to annex that much territory right away would be an administrative nightmare for any country.

If they ever plan to do something along the lines of giving Fascist powers the ability to create temporary, custom puppet states (Democracies being able to do it doesn't make sense, and Communists would simply puppet the country they occupy instead of making a new puppet), they better be able to be integrated.

 

[Aretii]

There are no uprisings, and annexed territory doesn't have unrest.

Wait, really? So if you full-annex the Soviet Union, your internal stability will be just fine? There's no penalty at all?

 

[kviiri]

Wait, really? So if you full-annex the Soviet Union, your internal stability will be just fine? There's no penalty at all?

Ya rly. https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...y-12th-of-february-2016.908066/#post-20650518