Puppet vs. Annex: Special Case of Germany-Hungary+Romania

[Anthropoid]

Continuation of: Annex vs Puppet - analysis and issues

In playing/analyzing the Germany 1936 position, I was debating the relative merits of the two mutually exclusive nodes in Germany's national focus tree:

Integrate War Economy vs.
German War Economy

The former depends on having completed the Align Romania, and Align Hungary nodes and affords making them puppets IF they are in faction, as well as about 4 factories per nation.

The latter affords Germany a boost to Mil Factories, and about 6 factories if I recall.

Which one is preferable really seems to depend on a few factors:
1. How does the puppet mechanism work
2. If you complete the Integrate node BEFORE Romania and Hungary are in faction, will they be "grandfathered" in as puppets? I would think yes, but I've noticed the game apparently NOT retroactively applying such bonii so I'm not sure (e.g., I noticed that, when I started research PzIII tanks BEFORE getting Treaty with Soviets, the reserach time did not drop after I got the Treaty with Soviets; back up reload and do it the other way round [get Treaty and THEN start PzIII research] and research time was half.

Anyone have any illumination to provide on these points?

@Karaya 1 made one response before the thread got locked for being more than one year old

Puppeting them is not worth it IMHO since they are just below free in their puppet level. You cant build in their territory so you cant lower their levels to make them more useful and make better use of their MP. Tried it once, wont do it again.

Ah thanks man! I'm glad you responded

I am just about to the point of puppeting them. I guess I'll grab a save file before I make the commitment one way or the other and then
try both.

Isn't a puppet supposed to be more or less completely under the control of the owner? Is the puppet status in this case somehow a special type of puppet?

I realize it is a notch down from annex, but given these are my faction members I would think that puppeting Hungary and Romania would give MORE
control not less.

Of course going to war and annexing them would give even more control, but that is not appealing.

 

[Dlin369]

The short answer: is that puppeting is nice if you like having control while still role-playing; you can freely give Hungary their "rightful" land for example without feeling like you are depriving yourself of resources (well, at least not all of it). The focus turns Hungary and Romania into Satellite Level Puppets (if you have DoD), or I think Dominions (if you have TfV only), which provides you with a couple advantages. I personally believe that if you have both DLCs it is very much worth the focus.

The longer answer is:
1.) Politically they are forced to join all your wars and cannot declare their own (the latter is helpful at times when the AI gets wargoals and are too stupid to realize they shouldn't press them).

2.) However, the biggest advantage (for most people) of satellites and puppets in general is you can take control of their troops. You do this by requesting troops in the diplomacy panel and they never say no to sending an expeditionary force.This is insanely helpful if you do it peacefully, as having an integrated command system means no overlapping front lines, no AI troops sapping away supply lines, and all and all reducing the wastefulness of the AI at times.

The wiki also lists:
Subject manpower requirement: +40%
Extra trade for overlord: +40%
Overlord trade cost: –40%
License cost between subject and master: –100%
All autonomy gain: –30%

Here are what they mean in order:

Subject manpower requirement: +40%
You can recruit puppet division templates (99% just with DoD, might require TfV as well), which means you can raise divisions that consist of partly puppet man-power and partly your own man-power. The percentage is called the Subject manpower reqirement, and for satellites its 40%. You have to copy a template from your puppet's template but after that you can edit it to your heart's desire - a good sink for your extra Army experience. You also need to provide the appropriate equipment for the troops. If you use them the conventional way (just as a man-power boost for your front line divisions), this is pretty good. But that also gives your puppets the ability to gradually break free by taking casualties/gaining war-score so it can't be that good right? Well, there is actually a way around that.

How? You can conserve + free-up extensive amounts of manpower by converting your existing reserve/coastal divisions into puppet divisions of the same template, as well as recruiting all future ones like this, basically creating the modern equivalent of Auxillia (I'm exaggerating a little bit, but I am an Italy player and extra man-power + recreating Rome = Giddiness). In my opinion, even more than their expeditionary forces, this is where puppets shine. This advantage is probably quite pronounced as Germany (I mainly use this tactic as Italy), as you will need quite a few divisions garrisoning the coast-line and suppressing resistance. Many people use 10-inf battalions for coasts and 5 inf for Cav, which are man-power heavy if production-cheap. Having puppets in Hungary + Romania, even if they are satellites and therefore have a lower subject manpower requirement, gives you a man-power pool for these less active jobs (and will not give them more warscore/autonomy) thereby freeing up Germans for Russia + other theaters - meaning you need lower conscription laws and can avoid the penalties of higher ones

Extra trade for overlord: +40%
Overlord trade cost: –40%
I can't actually tell you the difference here, but I know one of them means that you get a favorable trade ratio with your puppets. This is usually supposed to offsets the resources you lose by not directly annexing the state when you give it to a puppet, but in this case you never actually had a chance to directly annex them so there is not opportunity loss resource-wise. Basically, you can buy Romania's oil for 11 per Civ factories instead of 8. You can argue though, that you would be swimming in Civ factories by this point anyway, but in my opinion this does reduce the favorability of the other German War economy focus (which only gives you a few Mil-factories and none of the other bonuses here)

License cost between subject and master: –100%
Not a big one, but occasionally minors research advanced tech before you do. Lower licensing costs might save you a factory.

All autonomy gain: –30%
This is the advantage of having Fascist puppets vs the democratic/neutrality/commie puppets. All autonomy gain is pretty slow, which gives you time to stop any efforts of them escaping.

Compare that to German War Economy:
German war economy gives you a free
- War Economy
- 6 Military factories.

War economy costs 150 pp and as a fascist you can get it any time after 15% WT. Given you're Germany (which should have no shortage of PP) and probably causing the WT, I do not think it's that significant. Also you spend 70 pp on this focus, so you save 80 total.

6 Mil Factories? Well, honestly I think that pales in comparison to having 2 more puppets (both of which should be medium sized if you feed Hungary the land you are supposed to).

Addressing Possible Counter-Arguments:

Can't you just get those extra man-power/Auxilia from Vichy France + Slovakia? And how much man-power can Hungary + Romania actually have?
Yes, but keep this in mind. Every conscription law above Limit conscription starts to sap away at your production and training time. Once you get to service by requirement, that's some 10% factory output, which is the equivalent of losing 1 factory for every 10 you have of each. So even if you just have 60 factories, you are basically taking a loss if you go German War economy. As Germany you will probably have much much more than 60 Mil Factories, not to mention Civs. In other words, you do not want to raise your conscription laws if you can help it.

Between Romania and Hungary there are approximately 20 million people. Even if both stay at limited conscription, you still get 1,000,000 extra man-power - combined with your other puppets it can very well stave off having to go to Service by Requirement.

As Satellites you can't build on their territories so it's hard to reduce their autonomy!
Well yeah. I mean, it's not like you conquered them - you are just pulling them closer as allies. You should view this less like a master-servant relationship and more like a friends with benefits situation. It's not like you could have built on them beforehand and reduced their autonomy.

Anyway, if you really want them to be your servant/reichprotectorate you do have to work for it - lend-lease them your spare equiptment and take the continuous focus

 

[myzael]

I think you are missing the fact that if you have them both in your faction and thus puppet them using the NF, both get 4 MILs and you get 8. That alone is flat out better than the 6 you get from the other focus. Whether free War Economy is worth it is a matter of how high your war support is.

Keep in mind that having a puppet gives you high trade influence, allowing you to more easily trade for Romanian oil (and to lesser priority, Hungarian aluminium should you need it). Not to mention the possibility to develop infrastructure in the resource states (if you lower autonomy enough via LL/construction), which the AI rarely, if ever seems to do.

 

[seattle]

I went the puppet route last time. Like it a lot, but mostly for rpg reasons. Biggest downside: it takes 3 more NFs which you would normally not pick (at least not early), that's 270 days spent just to puppet Hungary and Romania and pimp them a bit.

I still like the route because it seamlessly integrates them into the Axis and adds a nice puppet touch.

 

[cunningstunts]

The short answer: is that puppeting is nice if you like having control while still role-playing; you can freely give Hungary their "rightful" land for example without feeling like you are depriving yourself of resources (well, at least not all of it). The focus turns Hungary and Romania into Satellite Level Puppets (if you have DoD), or I think Dominions (if you have TfV only), which provides you with a couple advantages. I personally believe that if you have both DLCs it is very much worth the focus.

The longer answer is:
1.) Politically they are forced to join all your wars and cannot declare their own (the latter is helpful at times when the AI gets wargoals and are too stupid to realize they shouldn't press them).

2.) However, the biggest advantage (for most people) of satellites and puppets in general is you can take control of their troops. You do this by requesting troops in the diplomacy panel and they never say no to sending an expeditionary force.This is insanely helpful if you do it peacefully, as having an integrated command system means no overlapping front lines, no AI troops sapping away supply lines, and all and all reducing the wastefulness of the AI at times.

The wiki also lists:
Subject manpower requirement: +40%
Extra trade for overlord: +40%
Overlord trade cost: –40%
License cost between subject and master: –100%
All autonomy gain: –30%

Here are what they mean in order:

Subject manpower requirement: +40%
You can recruit puppet division templates (99% just with DoD, might require TfV as well), which means you can raise divisions that consist of partly puppet man-power and partly your own man-power. The percentage is called the Subject manpower reqirement, and for satellites its 40%. You have to copy a template from your puppet's template but after that you can edit it to your heart's desire - a good sink for your extra Army experience. You also need to provide the appropriate equipment for the troops. If you use them the conventional way (just as a man-power boost for your front line divisions), this is pretty good. But that also gives your puppets the ability to gradually break free by taking casualties/gaining war-score so it can't be that good right? Well, there is actually a way around that.

How? You can conserve + free-up extensive amounts of manpower by converting your existing reserve/coastal divisions into puppet divisions of the same template, as well as recruiting all future ones like this, basically creating the modern equivalent of Auxillia (I'm exaggerating a little bit, but I am an Italy player and extra man-power + recreating Rome = Giddiness). In my opinion, even more than their expeditionary forces, this is where puppets shine. This advantage is probably quite pronounced as Germany (I mainly use this tactic as Italy), as you will need quite a few divisions garrisoning the coast-line and suppressing resistance. Many people use 10-inf battalions for coasts and 5 inf for Cav, which are man-power heavy if production-cheap. Having puppets in Hungary + Romania, even if they are satellites and therefore have a lower subject manpower requirement, gives you a man-power pool for these less active jobs (and will not give them more warscore/autonomy) thereby freeing up Germans for Russia + other theaters - meaning you need lower conscription laws and can avoid the penalties of higher ones

Extra trade for overlord: +40%
Overlord trade cost: –40%
I can't actually tell you the difference here, but I know one of them means that you get a favorable trade ratio with your puppets. This is usually supposed to offsets the resources you lose by not directly annexing the state when you give it to a puppet, but in this case you never actually had a chance to directly annex them so there is not opportunity loss resource-wise. Basically, you can buy Romania's oil for 11 per Civ factories instead of 8. You can argue though, that you would be swimming in Civ factories by this point anyway, but in my opinion this does reduce the favorability of the other German War economy focus (which only gives you a few Mil-factories and none of the other bonuses here)

License cost between subject and master: –100%
Not a big one, but occasionally minors research advanced tech before you do. Lower licensing costs might save you a factory.

All autonomy gain: –30%
This is the advantage of having Fascist puppets vs the democratic/neutrality/commie puppets. All autonomy gain is pretty slow, which gives you time to stop any efforts of them escaping.

Compare that to German War Economy:
German war economy gives you a free
- War Economy
- 6 Military factories.

War economy costs 150 pp and as a fascist you can get it any time after 15% WT. Given you're Germany (which should have no shortage of PP) and probably causing the WT, I do not think it's that significant. Also you spend 70 pp on this focus, so you save 80 total.

6 Mil Factories? Well, honestly I think that pales in comparison to having 2 more puppets (both of which should be medium sized if you feed Hungary the land you are supposed to).

Addressing Possible Counter-Arguments:

Can't you just get those extra man-power/Auxilia from Vichy France + Slovakia? And how much man-power can Hungary + Romania actually have?
Yes, but keep this in mind. Every conscription law above Limit conscription starts to sap away at your production and training time. Once you get to service by requirement, that's some 10% factory output, which is the equivalent of losing 1 factory for every 10 you have of each. So even if you just have 60 factories, you are basically taking a loss if you go German War economy. As Germany you will probably have much much more than 60 Mil Factories, not to mention Civs. In other words, you do not want to raise your conscription laws if you can help it.

Between Romania and Hungary there are approximately 20 million people. Even if both stay at limited conscription, you still get 1,000,000 extra man-power - combined with your other puppets it can very well stave off having to go to Service by Requirement.

As Satellites you can't build on their territories so it's hard to reduce their autonomy!
Well yeah. I mean, it's not like you conquered them - you are just pulling them closer as allies. You should view this less like a master-servant relationship and more like a friends with benefits situation. It's not like you could have built on them beforehand and reduced their autonomy.

Anyway, if you really want them to be your servant/reichprotectorate you do have to work for it - lend-lease them your spare equiptment and take the continuous focus

This is sort of along the lines of what I was thinking. The ability to control their troops and use their manpower is extremely valuable. If you play with a mod like Expert AI, Hungary and Romania will be building solid infantry divisions compared to vanilla and they might even have some mountaineers.

I think the devs overestimated the value of the German War Machine NF - as you say, Germany should be getting War Economy the second world tension hits 15%.

I went the puppet route last time. Like it a lot, but mostly for rpg reasons. Biggest downside: it takes 3 more NFs which you would normally not pick (at least not early), that's 270 days spent just to puppet Hungary and Romania and pimp them a bit.

I still like the route because it seamlessly integrates them into the Axis and adds a nice puppet touch.

These are good points, and I guess that's the downside of taking this route. If we're talking about a roughly historical game though, you'd only really need to take these focuses closer to Barbarossa because imo it's fairly unlikely that you'd get hit by a large D-Day before 1942 at the earliest. And by this time you've probably taken most of your important NFs as Germany. You could puppet HUN and ROM around this time if your intention is to use their manpower and use their troops for garrison duty on the Atlantic Wall.

If you're hoping to puppet them before Barbarossa so that you can use their troops against the Soviets, then you'd have to take the 270 day NF hit and live with it.

 

[seattle]

These are good points, and I guess that's the downside of taking this route. If we're talking about a roughly historical game though, you'd only really need to take these focuses closer to Barbarossa because imo it's fairly unlikely that you'd get hit by a large D-Day before 1942 at the earliest. And by this time you've probably taken most of your important NFs as Germany. You could puppet HUN and ROM around this time if your intention is to use their manpower and use their troops for garrison duty on the Atlantic Wall.

If you're hoping to puppet them before Barbarossa so that you can use their troops against the Soviets, then you'd have to take the 270 day NF hit and live with it.

But by then you're swimming in 200+ military factories due to conquering France etc.
In 1936 however, the extra 6 mil factories are precious.

 

[Alliegorical]

These are good points, and I guess that's the downside of taking this route. If we're talking about a roughly historical game though, you'd only really need to take these focuses closer to Barbarossa because imo it's fairly unlikely that you'd get hit by a large D-Day before 1942 at the earliest. And by this time you've probably taken most of your important NFs as Germany. You could puppet HUN and ROM around this time if your intention is to use their manpower and use their troops for garrison duty on the Atlantic Wall.

If you're hoping to puppet them before Barbarossa so that you can use their troops against the Soviets, then you'd have to take the 270 day NF hit and live with it.

The best time for these three focuses IMO is immediately after finishing Around Maginot. It's definitely worth it, especially if you're playing with historical focuses off and you're worried that either nation might get any ideas.

But by then you're swimming in 200+ military factories due to conquering France etc.
In 1936 however, the extra 6 mil factories are precious.

In 1936, mil factories are mostly worthless. Almost everything they make will be obsolete by 1939--even your aircraft should have been heavily upgraded by then using air experience from volunteers, lend-lease, and attaches. For the first two years of the game, you should be building exclusively civilian factories and use your MEFO bills to just snowball a mega-economy, and then sometime in 1938 you can vomit a billion military factories practically overnight.

 

[Hopit]

I try to avoid puppets like the plague in hoi4
They never do anything remotely useful and they hold all those juicy resources I'd rather held personally

 

[Alliegorical]

I try to avoid puppets like the plague in hoi4
They never do anything remotely useful and they hold all those juicy resources I'd rather held personally

Puppets have many uses. I'm not suggesting that it's always better to puppet than annex, but it is always better to have a puppet than an ally, which is what we're really discussing here.

 

[cunningstunts]

But by then you're swimming in 200+ military factories due to conquering France etc.
In 1936 however, the extra 6 mil factories are precious.

I see the merit there too, especially if you're playing against humans and not the AI.

Personally I would prefer to beeline for the research slot and then do the annexations quick as possible.

Even when the MEFO bills get nerfed, taking Austria and Czech's CIV factories ASAP is a good play because you'll be paying almost no consumer goods - but they will. Hence you want them quickly.

 

[seattle]

In 1936, mil factories are mostly worthless. Almost everything they make will be obsolete by 1939--even your aircraft should have been heavily upgraded by then using air experience from volunteers, lend-lease, and attaches. For the first two years of the game, you should be building exclusively civilian factories and use your MEFO bills to just snowball a mega-economy, and then sometime in 1938 you can vomit a billion military factories practically overnight.

Support equipment and motorized are two production lines you never have to upgrade. Think about how much of them you can churn out in those years with 6 extra military factories.

 

[Hopit]

Puppets have many uses. I'm not suggesting that it's always better to puppet than annex, but it is always better to have a puppet than an ally, which is what we're really discussing here.

There are no such thing as allies in hoi4
They screw you even harder than the "enemy" ai

 

[Anthropoid]

Wow! Thanks a ton folks! Some truly fantastic responses , too many to single out and thanks specifically!

There are no such thing as allies in hoi4
They screw you even harder than the "enemy" ai

My solution to this (as Germany) is to REFUSE to ally with Italy and Japan!

Based on the high quality feedback in this thread, I'm definitely gonna try the puppet route this first time.

 

[Less2]

I can't actually tell you the difference here, but I know one of them means that you get a favorable trade ratio with your puppets. This is usually supposed to offsets the resources you lose by not directly annexing the state when you give it to a puppet, but in this case you never actually had a chance to directly annex them so there is not opportunity loss resource-wise. Basically, you can buy Romania's oil for 11 per Civ factories instead of 8. You can argue though, that you would be swimming in Civ factories by this point anyway, but in my opinion this does reduce the favorability of the other German War economy focus (which only gives you a few Mil-factories and none of the other bonuses here)

Worth noting that puppets are an excellent way to stay at Export/Free trade and still feed your economy. Regardless of their export law they are still forced to feed you everything, as if you had annexed them with closed economy on.

Worth keeping in mind that if you are running a lax trade law (like free trade/export focus), you wouldn't get much of the resources anyway and will usually get e.g. more oil from an independent Romania.
Can't you just get those extra man-power/Auxilia from Vichy France + Slovakia? And how much man-power can Hungary + Romania actually have?
Yes, but keep this in mind. Every conscription law above Limit conscription starts to sap away at your production and training time. Once you get to service by requirement, that's some 10% factory output, which is the equivalent of losing 1 factory for every 10 you have of each. So even if you just have 60 factories, you are basically taking a loss if you go German War economy. As Germany you will probably have much much more than 60 Mil Factories, not to mention Civs. In other words, you do not want to raise your conscription laws if you can help it.

Factory output modifiers are additive so in most cases conscription will not nearly hurt you as much as it appears. e.g. by 1941 it's not unlikely that you'll be near +100% factory output, at that point -10% only decreases your overall output by 5%. Now that manpower trickles in so slowly basically everyone should probably be going Service by Requirement well ahead of time.

 

[General Pera]

I like to puppet them. One nation to dominate them all. But I have a question; if I puppet Romania, will the "Soviet Union demands Bessarabia" still happen? Not keen on potentialy being drawn into a war with the Soviets until I chose to do so.

 

[Dlin369]

I like to puppet them. One nation to dominate them all. But I have a question; if I puppet Romania, will the "Soviet Union demands Bessarabia" still happen? Not keen on potentialy being drawn into a war with the Soviets until I chose to do so.

Probably, but the Romanians almost always fold even as a puppet - at least from my experience

 

[Gr1pen]

Probably, but the Romanians almost always fold even as a puppet - at least from my experience

Yeah so THIS is what needs changing, the AI should ask the puppet master who can then decide, it's also a good role playing/immersion thingy

 

[Less2]

Here's a thought for the thread: In what situations should you/what does the math look like for releasing puppets out of already annexed territory?

Botswana. Lose zero factories, can buy the full 80 Chromium whenever you need it for 1 civ factory. If will take focuses eventually to generate 7 factories itself.

Egypt, lose 3 factories but gains the focus factories and also improves supply fighting in North Africa and prevents the need for convoyed supplies that could be sunk?

Korea, lose 1/1/1 factories but you'll eventually have more total military factories yourself (military industry to overlord + focus/higher core territory limit)?

Libya. Absolutely nothing lost that I can tell, every advantage possible? I guess it's a potential military problem if it gets capitulated and your forces are stuck?

But by then you're swimming in 200+ military factories due to conquering France etc.
In 1936 however, the extra 6 mil factories are precious.

I disagree. Military factories in 1936 are producing equipment that will likely be outdated for the war and that you want to resign to cheap partisan suppression units anyway. They are also massively less efficient in their production than 1939+ factories. Ideally if you are going to war in 1939 you want every bit of production you can to be coming out of 1939 military factories with 1939 production rates and 1939 tech. Heck, Poland isn't a challenge, push back your military equipment production spike to 1940 if you like.

Also for nations that aren't shooting up MEFO bills like an addict military factories count against CG costs meaning less civilian factories and therefore eventually less military factories in the mid game.

 

[Dlin369]

Here's a thought for the thread: In what situations should you/what does the math look like for releasing puppets out of already annexed territory?

Botswana. Lose zero factories, can buy the full 80 Chromium whenever you need it for 1 civ factory. If will take focuses eventually to generate 7 factories itself.

Egypt, lose 3 factories but gains the focus factories and also improves supply fighting in North Africa and prevents the need for convoyed supplies that could be sunk?

Korea, lose 1/1/1 factories but you'll eventually have more total military factories yourself (military industry to overlord + focus/higher core territory limit)?

Libya. Absolutely nothing lost that I can tell, every advantage possible? I guess it's a potential military problem if it gets capitulated and your forces are stuck?



I disagree. Military factories in 1936 are producing equipment that will likely be outdated for the war and that you want to resign to cheap partisan suppression units anyway. They are also massively less efficient in their production than 1939+ factories. Ideally if you are going to war in 1939 you want every bit of production you can to be coming out of 1939 military factories with 1939 production rates and 1939 tech. Heck, Poland isn't a challenge, push back your military equipment production spike to 1940 if you like.

Also for nations that aren't shooting up MEFO bills like an addict military factories count against CG costs meaning less civilian factories and therefore eventually less military factories in the mid game.

With Libya it's actually better to keep it (even if cyrenica is a nice name) - Italy has a focus to develop infrastructure and get oil + synthetic factories but they need direct control of the area. Sadly they can't get too much manpower either

 

[myzael]

With Libya it's actually better to keep it (even if cyrenica is a nice name) - Italy has a focus to develop infrastructure and get oil + synthetic factories but they need direct control of the area. Sadly they can't get too much manpower either

If you release, the puppet has access to decisions doing the same. Admittedly, they require high enough excavation tech (lvl 3 IIRC), but still.