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Riddermark

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It will work like this:

- you dow pope - (even not directly some of his vassals)
- a claim holder wishes to join your court (with claim on PAPA)
- then after you capture 100% papacy you force him to recognise the claim of the claim holder that joined your court

= new pope - this should always give you to be PC

Still its a bit explotive but there should be a way around it.

What do u think?
 

Lurken

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Sounds fun and somewhat historical.
 

unmerged(48100)

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Aug 30, 2005
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It sounds someway good. But I fear a Germany could use this all the time. Then the Pope would be a puppet of the Emperor and most of the time he wasn't.

I would like this event if there is a negative effect on it. Like your vassals get granted a crown by the Pope and would rebel. Say the King of Germany attacks the Pope, then the Pope grants all Italian vassals of Germany the Italian crown which gives them a claim and they declare war on Germany. Then there would happen a civil war as everybody wants to be King of Italy.

Or otherwise there should be the chance you get excommunicated from the Pope if you attack him.
 

Lurken

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The Phoenix said:
Or perhaps excommunication for those fighting the Pope?
Which would be rescinded upon installing the puppet-pope
 

unmerged(51332)

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''Installed pupet pope'' This character has taken it upon himself to banish the rightful pope and install a puppet. This is extremely bad trait

Effects +2 prestige every month
-10 peity every month
-7% loyalty for vassals every month
No crusades able to be declared
Chance the puppet can break his power (which results in auto EXCOM)
All dukes get a claim on the primary title


And perhaps even changing all his regions to heretic. As you can see this is not something ANYONE wants but really installing puppet popes NEVER helped any empire. So i find it all realistic.
 

unmerged(52401)

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Jan 2, 2006
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Iron_Skull said:
''Installed pupet pope'' This character has taken it upon himself to banish the rightful pope and install a puppet. This is extremely bad trait

Effects +2 prestige every month
-10 peity every month
-7% loyalty for vassals every month
No crusades able to be declared
Chance the puppet can break his power (which results in auto EXCOM)
All dukes get a claim on the primary title


And perhaps even changing all his regions to heretic. As you can see this is not something ANYONE wants but really installing puppet popes NEVER helped any empire. So i find it all realistic.

Should their not be some positive effect aswell then? I mean I cant see many human players rushing to get that trait if it's all negative
 

unmerged(5822)

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Byakhiam said:
There's no way to make the puppet pope's installer always get PC.
Would it be possible to give the claim to an ecclesiastically educated brother or son of your ruler?
 

Riddermark

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bah lets not involve traits into this.. and whats with all these negative effects? thats ridicilous !? wtf mate - this should be something as a good thing - maybe upon installing the puppet his prestige will be super low .. yes thats it..

the puppet pope will not be able to excommunicate anyone nor call crusades ( ? ) something like pulling the teeth out of the papacy for a while.

this will last of course until the dead of the pope.
 

joriandrake

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Riddermark said:
bah lets not involve traits into this.. and whats with all these negative effects? thats ridicilous !? wtf mate - this should be something as a good thing - maybe upon installing the puppet his prestige will be super low .. yes thats it..

the puppet pope will not be able to excommunicate anyone nor call crusades ( ? ) something like pulling the teeth out of the papacy for a while.

this will last of course until the dead of the pope.
Without the permission of the 'puppetmaster' ;)
 

unmerged(21937)

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Nov 15, 2003
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The Phoenix said:
Would it be possible to give the claim to an ecclesiastically educated brother or son of your ruler?

No. You could create a claimholder, if you're at war with Pope, but that claimholder doesn't necessarily turn up holding claim at Pope and in most cases won't be pope-material at all.
 

Riddermark

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No. You could create a claimholder, if you're at war with Pope, but that claimholder doesn't necessarily turn up holding claim at Pope and in most cases won't be pope-material at all.

so u say theres NO way that the claim holder can get a PAPA claim? the kingdom claim i mean ?
 

unmerged(21937)

Your Industrial Friend
Nov 15, 2003
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Riddermark said:
so u say theres NO way that the claim holder can get a PAPA claim? the kingdom claim i mean ?

He might get it, but (the last I recall) created claimholders can also get county claims.
 

Riddermark

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ive never seen one getting more than county claim - are u sure he can get a duke or even king status?

if it fires so rarely - then there is no reason no to include the event - it won't be explotivie at all
 

unmerged(21937)

Your Industrial Friend
Nov 15, 2003
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Riddermark said:
ive never seen one getting more than county claim - are u sure he can get a duke or even king status?

No, I'm not sure. It might be just county claims. Created Claimholders aren't my speciality.

Riddermark said:
if it fires so rarely - then there is no reason no to include the event - it won't be explotivie at all

There is a very good reason to not include any needless events, CPU load.
 

Riddermark

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thats how my 90% of good ideas bite the dust :/ *curses in bulgarian,english and korean*
 

unmerged(51332)

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Riddermark said:
bah lets not involve traits into this.. and whats with all these negative effects? thats ridicilous !? wtf mate - this should be something as a good thing - maybe upon installing the puppet his prestige will be super low .. yes thats it..

the puppet pope will not be able to excommunicate anyone nor call crusades ( ? ) something like pulling the teeth out of the papacy for a while.

this will last of course until the dead of the pope.
Umm there was a positive effect...prestige. And yes its realistic all of it. Less piety....Cause you just oisted the pope (realistic) less loyalty for vassals Because you just oisted the pope (realistic) pope/or puppet pope excomunicating you (realistic infact it happened many times). And this shouldn't be for people running out to get this trait... I mean its not a good thing to throw a pope out of power. All nations would hate you. Infact I use being a little easy on it not hard. And also no crusades is realistic too as no one would recognize him as the real pope and thus wouldn't listen to him...I mean if were GOING to have a trait for this or have this period...it should be bad not good. Something you do in drastic measures or to stop the stupid A.I from obsorbing the papacy...not a great thing I mean then all players will be bored and will be like oh lets kill the pope....and it helps them!??! Not realistic
 
May 31, 2004
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Hmm...surely the best way to approach the problem would be to mimic the ways that the Papacy was challenged historically?

Appointing an anti-pope happened a couple of times and, inevitably, the anti-pope was immediately excommunicated by the legitimate pope (go figure...). The only legitimacy the anti-pope had was with whoever was the secular backing behind his appointment (generally the HRE) and unless the real Pope had been deposed, the anti-pope installed and the entire Catholic community didn't rise up in violent disgust, then nothing would have come of it.

Total number of anti-popes who became pope? Nil.

So, rather than over-complicating matters, perhaps a flavour event that could trigger for catholic Kings to renounce the Pope's legitimacy and appoint their own anti-pope. The randomly selected character (unfortunate he...) would then be excommunicated as, most likely, would the King. The advantage of taking this route would be to avoid an equally grim alternative offered by the Papacy, such as Umam Sanctum (the King accepts that the Pope is his rightful liege - enormous loss to prestige and gold, change to church-strength laws), resist the Papal Bull (enormous loss to piety, loss to gold) or renounce the Pope (appoint random anti-pope who is excommunicated, chance of King being excommunicated and, ideally, loss of prestige to Pope and Papal Controller).

This event would then play out with the excommunicated characters later having the chance to reconcile with the Papacy through the normal event channels. No need to declare that their populace are heretics - they haven't turned protestant, they're just being encouraged to believe that the Pope in Rome isn't the rightful catholic Pope.


Regarding puppet popes, it would be a nice flavour if when the Pope is forced out of Rome and steals someone's land...sorry, 'relocates the Papacy', then the liege at the top of that particular food chain should have a decent chance of being appointed Papal Controller, much like the Avignon Papacy. This would only be temporary - any new Pope wouldn't necessarily be so lacking in will (as they weren't).
 

Riddermark

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I like! :D