Pulse lasers?

[Coyotekins]

So i went through absolute hell in a flashpoint to get a pulse laser....


And i dont see anything unique about it?
In fact they are worse then medium lasers.

2 tonnage vs 1 tonnage
30 damage vs 25 damage (you find 30 damage lasers everywhere though)
16 heat vs 12 heat.

Do you guys want to see what i went through for this stupid laser?

I lost a double heat sink,got a pilot killed.. Lost my crab.
Had to do the final flashpoint section with only 3 mechs... Barely survived.

For this piece of garbage... When i could have gotten a gauss rifle instead -_-
Gauss rifles at least are useful... This thing is really bad... I was hoping for something to stick onto my jenner.

Like, even if it was 1 tonnage it would still be absolutely useless.
They need to hit multiple times per shot and do small damage per shot and large damage as a whole.. Like missles. Something to make them different and useful... Like, damn i feel so bad right now.

 

[AussieGiant]

Pulse Lazers are more accurate. The one stat you are not mentioning is that they have a plus to accuracy. Not sure what that bonus is though.

 

[Coyotekins]

Pulse Lazers are more accurate. The one stat you are not mentioning is that they have a plus to accuracy. Not sure what that bonus is though.

It does not have accuracy bonus. Or it at least does not state that in the stats or description.

It says this: Like ALL lasers, medium pulse lasers enjoy a baseline accuracy bonus.
So that means they arent more accurate when compared to other lasers... They just share that attribute.

Ontop of that. Its not worth it since you get +acc medium lasers all the time. :l

 

[AussieGiant]

It does not have accuracy bonus. Or it at least does not state that in the stats or description.

It says this: Like ALL lasers, medium pulse lasers enjoy a baseline accuracy bonus.
So that means they arent more accurate when compared to other lasers... They just share that attribute.

Ontop of that. Its not worth it since you get +acc medium lasers all the time. :l

Very true that there are a lot of + or ++ Lazers.

Certainly the additional bonus is not mentioned but I still believe there is one over "normal" non-pulse lazers.

 

[Jade_Rook]

Pulse lasers have a +2 accuracy bonus instead of the +1 accuracy that normal lasers get.

 

[mAIOR]

Pulse lasers have a +2 accuracy bonus instead of the +1 accuracy that normal lasers get.

It is pretty poinless. I agree with the OP. Been arguing i favour of such a system since beta. Certain weapons (pulse, AC2 and AC5) would benefit from muliple shots instead of higher damage output so the choice would be between higher overall damage albeit likely not on the same section, and higher pinpoint damage. So a mpl could do 2 attacks at 20 dmg vs a normal ml which would do single attack at 25 points. This would make them unique and useful instead of a waste of tonnage.

 

[Pherdnut]

Large Pulse Laser compared to stock Large Laser

Heat generated is 23 for all 3 variants (+5 more than all L Lasers)

Stock Pulse Laser:
+2 to hit instead of +1
7 tons - +2 tons (that's the biggest problem)
45 - +5 more damage

+:
+2 to hit
6 tons +1 tons
45 - +5 more damage

++:
+3 to hit
6 tons: +1 tons
45 damage: +5 more damage

Compare to the laughably easier to find Magna +++ L Laser

+4 to hit: +3 more to hit
5 tons
50 damage: +10 more damage

Unless ProjectilesPerShot is no longer just a cosmetic thing (pulse has 3), pulse lasers don't give us anything we didn't already better versions of and add more negatives. I think the problem is that they made their rares a little bit too good and improving on them creates some balance ish. At the very least the pulse should get better crit like the ERs do with the + and ++ versions.

 

[AncientRaig]

Yeah, SLDF tech is rendered fairly useless in HBSBT thanks to all the + weaponry. You get a slight damage increase and a little bit more accuracy (in a game where you already are more accurate than you were in the tabletop) at the cost of a fairly significant heat and weight increase, plus a loss of range. Rare weaponry was a mistake IMO, as it makes balancing SLDF equipment (which already caused balance nightmares in TT) a problem. And that's before we even get into considering Clan tech. Can you imagine a +++ Clan ER Medium Laser? The base model already outshines the base IS Large Laser in all but a single point of damage (or five points of damage with the HBSBT system). Give it rare weapon buffs and it would be nightmarish.

 

[Unruly Marmite]

From what I understand most LosTech weapons are kind of terrible compared to standard...as they were on tabletop. The issue, I think, is things like weight and that they should be used in mechs that have endo-steel chassis and double heat sinks and all the other doodads, in which case they're arguably better. Well, not better but...probably an example would get my thoughts over better.

The Black Knight, as an example. The SLDF Black Knight- 6b?- has an ER PPC, two ER Large Lasers and four standard Mediums I think? I mean, that's a good, what, five or six tons more than a standard Black Knight payload? In our control, we'd probably just dump the SLDF weapons and use lighter Tier 1 stuff. But in universe, it's better because it has better damage and range. Issue is that it doesn't hold up once we start customising. But I'm rambling now, so I'll actually try to be on topic.

The thing is, I think that SLDF weapons shouldn't weigh more than Tier 1 counterparts. If a Pulse Laser weighed as much as a standard Medium, but with better range, accuracy and damage for a little more heat then that's a trade I might make. As it is they're too heavy, in my opinion. But then that cant be changed without messing up the SLDF mechs in game, so maybe just do something like lower the heat, increase the damage, come up with some way to make the extended range better. But as it is, I really can't see a use for them other than the Gauss Rifle, because by the time you get the accuracy increased weapons your pilots are good enough to make them meaningless and the extended range rarely comes in useful when normal Large Lasers can usually hit something that's been sensor locked, in my experience.

This post was longer than I thought it would be, my apologies.

 

[Coyotekins]

Im surprised the double heat sinks dont weigh 2 or 3 tonnage -_-
lol

 

[Jade_Rook]

Yeah, SLDF tech is rendered fairly useless in HBSBT thanks to all the + weaponry. You get a slight damage increase and a little bit more accuracy (in a game where you already are more accurate than you were in the tabletop) at the cost of a fairly significant heat and weight increase, plus a loss of range.

Pulse lasers have the same range as standard lasers in this game.

The Black Knight, as an example. The SLDF Black Knight- 6b?- has an ER PPC, two ER Large Lasers and four standard Mediums I think? I mean, that's a good, what, five or six tons more than a standard Black Knight payload?

The SLDF Black Knight (it is the BL-6b-KNT) has an ER PPC and 2 Large Pulse Lasers. ER weapons have the same tonnage as regular versions. The large pulses are an extra 2 tons each, so a total of 4 tons extra on guns.


In TT, range and accuracy were more important than they are here. Extra range effectively became extra accuracy because of the range penalties. TT Pulse lasers are a bit of a mixed bag, but I like them. They weight more, generate more heat, and have less range, but are more accurate than standard lasers and deal an extra point of damage.

 

[Pherdnut]

So i went through absolute hell in a flashpoint to get a pulse laser....

FYI, you get two DHS with that pulse laser. I preferrred that over the gauss which I'm not sure was a + or not. If not, that's easy enough to get from SLDF highlanders at black markets and I have a couple + gauss rifles from Lostech FP drops.

 

[Coyotekins]

FYI, you get two DHS with that pulse laser. I preferrred that over the gauss which I'm not sure was a + or not. If not, that's easy enough to get from SLDF highlanders at black markets and I have a couple + gauss rifles from Lostech FP drops.

Not if you are playing with default rules. I dont have mechs that come with weapons
I also have yet to find any lostech in shops and i have checked black market and my allied shops around 230 times so far.

 

[Pherdnut]

Not if you are playing with default rules. I dont have mechs that come with weapons
I also have yet to find any lostech in shops and i have checked black market and my allied shops around 230 times so far.

Complete mech purchases still come with weapons I assume. There's a 1.9% chance a complete SLDF Highlander will drop at a black market. Given the number of BMs, that's not bad. SLDF stuff showing at SLDF worlds odds are very low and only for vanilla non-+ SLDF items and also the SLDF Highlander but still a chance of complete or just one part. Complete SLDF Highlander costs 24 millionish of course but it comes with 5 DHS and gauss cannon/ammo.

 

[Aleksandria]

So pulse lasers would, in theory, be worth it sometimes if their accuracy buff was far more significant. If it were a +5 buff as an example, even at 2 tons you're talking way more damage/heat efficiency up to about a 40-50% hit chance.

The problem is past the very early game we operate in a realm of 95% nearly always and its simply never going to be worth it then. Then you add in rare gear and, well, pulse lasers can be entirely replaced by ++ or +++ standard MLas, regardless of why you would want them.

 

[commuterzombie]

Yeah, pulse lasers are pretty sub-optimal in this game at the moment. I think you're looking at this the wrong way though...

"So i went through absolute hell in a flashpoint"

That's awesome! I wish this game had more missions that mercilessly hammer your plucky lance for turn after turn before you manage to pull out a narrow win by the skin of your teeth. The tension! The drama! The struggles of grappling with paying for all of those repairs! That's this game at its best

 

[ronhatch]

Regarding rare weapon balance, I remember always hearing that the x5 damage as compared to tabletop was specifically so that finer adjustments could be made for variants from specific manufacturers. And then (except for the missile special case) the bonus damage always comes in multiples of 5.

What's up with that?

 

[IceTitan]

The thing is the 3025 mechs are not optimal for pulse weapons. They have standard heat sinks in their engines and DHS are not common. Also engagements are close range more than not.

Pulse lasers during Star League era where still fairly new tech. So unlike the basic weapons that had centuries of use and still being used, most SLDF weapons did not have centuries to improve as their facilities where destroyed and designs where lost.

So makes sense that the basic weapons get more varied and powerful + effects. While once those weapons get properly introduced should also start having more varied and stronger +'s due to the various manufacturers.

SLDF tech isn't meant to be stronger, just added flavour and uniqueness. But starting 3040+ which in urban Warfare the timeline will be moved up to 3028 which means min 12 more years min to start seeing actual effective SLDF tech redesigns. Since they start being reintroduced in 3039-3049 and begin mass production a year or 2 before the clan invasion.

 

[Pherdnut]

The thing is the 3025 mechs are not optimal for pulse weapons. They have standard heat sinks in their engines and DHS are not common. Also engagements are close range more than not.

Pulse lasers during Star League era where still fairly new tech. So unlike the basic weapons that had centuries of use and still being used, most SLDF weapons did not have centuries to improve as their facilities where destroyed and designs where lost.

So makes sense that the basic weapons get more varied and powerful + effects. While once those weapons get properly introduced should also start having more varied and stronger +'s due to the various manufacturers.

SLDF tech isn't meant to be stronger, just added flavour and uniqueness. But starting 3040+ which in urban Warfare the timeline will be moved up to 3028 which means min 12 more years min to start seeing actual effective SLDF tech redesigns. Since they start being reintroduced in 3039-3049 and begin mass production a year or 2 before the clan invasion.

But we have the mechs these weapons were installed on as well as the heat mitigation they require. There's no reason to because they offer no advantages. L Laser +++ for instance is in no way inferior to L Pulse ++ and superior in damage, weight, heat AND accuracy.

There really shouldn't have been much in the way of innovation over SLDF's latest and greatest up to this point. The setting is only just starting to come out of a higher tech dark age where everything has been in decline. Factories are rare and the tech isn't understood well enough to build new ones. Most mechs are handed down from previous generations. FTL communication is being monopolized by a techno-priesthood that mostly understands and maintains the tech through rote ritual.

Most critically, from a game design perspective these weapons are being awarded as if they're the best a faction has to offer for faction-critical missions. They should at least offer some new unique advantage if they roll from the same table as a gauss + or ++. The ERs aren't really that great either but they're at least undeniably superior in range and the + and ++ also get a boost to critical hits.

IMO, small/medium pulse should hit three times for the doubling of the weight and additional heat. Large could hit twice. Maybe reduce damage of consecutive hits to balance within reason as necessary.

 

[44th MAC|Bonsai]

Imo pulse lasers aren't worth it the way they are right now in BT. They are plain worse then standard lasers, and if that's intended or not, i don't care - it's a pity, because it would have been an opportunity to implement something more "exciting". Like the Gauss, that implements long range high damage ballistic weaponry. And a third headcapper besides AC20s and AC10+s, able of doing so from extreme range.
The multishot-pulselaser would have been something exciting like this. Higher overall damage and accuracy, but spread (so it doesn't get to overpowered), more heat and weight.

As it is now, I just modded them to be worth the effort, but they are just another laser with slightly different stats, not really changing playstyle be any means. That's a missed opportunity HBS might want to put to use, as BT progresses through the TL and pulse laser tech becomes more common (or players get annoyed because they hunted for valuable lostech and left with yet another laser that can't keep up with even the standard ML)