Public Betapatch: Heresy discussion

[Cat Lord]

Public Betapatch October 10th: Heresy

I am very interested in any feedback on Heresy.

Please report here what you like/dislike and any balance problem (note: this currently affect the 1066 and 1187 scenario, as the 1337 scenario is still "work in progress").

I expect bogomiles in Byzantium, and cathars in Toulouse (in 1187).

Cat

 

[Cat Lord]

No one to try Toulouse in the 1187 scenario and come back with some feedback

Cat

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Do you want our impact on its effects or events dealing with it or which provinces/characters start as heretic?

 

[Cat Lord]

Basically I want people to have heretics appears somewhere (the easiest being Toulouse area 1187 or Bulgaria area, ideally both) , and then give me feedback about the related events: Which ones do occurs, how frequently, etc, etc...

And ideally with the different possibilities: Trying to be anti-heretic, trying to be neutral, trying to be heretic.

Cat

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Basically I want people to have heretics appears somewhere (the easiest being Toulouse area 1187 or Bulgaria area, ideally both) , and then give me feedback about the related events: Which ones do occurs, how frequently, etc, etc...

And ideally with the different possibilities: Trying to be anti-heretic, trying to be neutral, trying to be heretic.

Cat

Ok...this reminds me...shouldn't religious conversions (both character and provinces) always have a chance of heresy? After all, if they just switched religions, they likely still have many practices the church would view as heretical.

 

[Cat Lord]

Well, I have tried to tie heresy with religious flexibility tech, which made sense (and are actually quite close to history), so my current preference is to only represent the 4 or 5 major heretic movement of the period.

I agree they have been lot of different ones, but not on the scale of Bogomiles/Cathars/Waldesians/Wyclifits.

Cat

 

[unmerged(2266)]

Basically I want people to have heretics appears somewhere (the easiest being Toulouse area 1187 or Bulgaria area, ideally both) , and then give me feedback about the related events: Which ones do occurs, how frequently, etc, etc...

So is it hardcoded that heretics tend to appear where they appeared historically (e.g. Albigensians in southern France in the 12th century)? Personally, I'd rather we don't assume heresy will appear in a particular place at a particular time, but make it a game function dependent on things like heretical rulers, social upheaval, randomness, etc.

The rise of the Albigensians was largely due to how the Dukes of Toulouse dealt with a social situation that arose in their demesne (which arose in part because the Dukes were generally a tolerant bunch to begin with). If, in game, the demesne of Toulouse is partitioned among loyal and subservient descendents of the French king (just as an example) then the Albigensians, and thus the Albigensian Crusade, should probably never exist.

 

[Cat Lord]

So is it hardcoded that heretics tend to appear where they appeared historically (e.g. Albigensians in southern France in the 12th century)? Personally, I'd rather we don't assume heresy will appear in a particular place at a particular time, but make it a game function dependent on things like heretical rulers, social upheaval, randomness, etc.

The rise of the Albigensians was largely due to how the Dukes of Toulouse dealt with a social situation that arose in their demesne (which arose in part because the Dukes were generally a tolerant bunch to begin with). If, in game, the demesne of Toulouse is partitioned among loyal and subservient descendents of the French king (just as an example) then the Albigensians, and thus the Albigensian Crusade, should probably never exist.

No it's not. Have a look at the Heresy_events.txt.

But, the 1187 scenario is set up so that Heresy will very likely appear in Toulouse.

It's much more random if you start in 1066, as Heresy is tied to Religious Tech apparition and spreading.

OTOH, some cultures have a bonus for the apparition of some heresy: southslavic for bogomiles, occitan and italian for catharism, bohemian and english for Wyclifits, etc, etc...

Cat

 

[Cat Lord]

I really ought to write this FAQ about Heresy... o

If you are interested, I mainly base my work on the book in this thread: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=151185

Another topic of interest in the History forum is this one: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=155006



Cat

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Well, I have tried to tie heresy with religious flexibility tech, which made sense (and are actually quite close to history), so my current preference is to only represent the 4 or 5 major heretic movement of the period.

I agree they have been lot of different ones, but not on the scale of Bogomiles/Cathars/Waldesians/Wyclifits.

Cat

I'm not saying it should be likely, but it certainly is historic that border areas that were coverted often held many heretical practices.

Also i noticed new religion events in the betafile...does that mean there is possiblity of new religious tags or what?

 

[unmerged(17523)]

What about these 2 event additions:

1 # Chance for Heretic Province to revolt if inquisition is present in the desmene

(so also other provinces in your demesne may revolt because there is is an inquisition your demesne)

2 Give each ruler (or at least the heretic and sceptical ones) the possibility to decide if they want the inquisition in their province(s), but I reckon throwing out the inquisition should have more severe consequences (piety -50 and perhaps a chance for a clergy revolt etc.) as it has now (piety -25 etc.) although one has to keep in mind that after throwing out the inquisition it will most probable will spread again into your province/demesne.

 

[Sekenr]

I am very interested in any feedback on Heresy.

Please report here what you like/dislike and any balance problem (note: this currently affect the 1066 and 1187 scenario, as the 1337 scenario is still "work in progress").

I expect bogomiles in Byzantium, and cathars in Toulouse (in 1187).

Cat

Aren't bogomils supposed to be in Rus ?

 

[Cat Lord]

Aren't bogomils supposed to be in Rus ?

From what I have read, bogomilism really developped in Bulgaria, feeding on nationalist feelings and resentment towards the Greek Orthodox Church of Byzantium, like hussitism would feed on czech nationalism a couple of century later, and against german upper class.

It spreads from there, mainly toward the West, leading to catharism, but was almost unheard of in Orthodox "Russia", AFAIK.

Cat

 

[Luis de Aveiro]

Iberian Heresies(?) in the 11th-12th century

I've found out something that could be like a heresy (or not)

Historically Iberia had his christian rite, called mozarabe, which was from the visigothic kingdom era, before the gregorian reform.
This rite, although the Church oficially didn't considered it as heresy, tried to replaced it by the new roman rite, which was done by Cluny monks which came with the frankish/burgundian knights that helped king Alfonso VI Leon & Castille and recieved Galicia and Portugal counties/duchies. In the beginning of the 12th century the bishops of Iberia were almost all from the Cluny Order and the mozarabe rite was not used as much. Reading further in the subject, Afonso Henriques, in the second quarter of that century, founded the Kingdom of Portugal, and lay that claim against his cousin (Afonso VII Leon & Castille) and tried to get the Pope's aknowledgment. This process had so many delays (although his cousin accepted his claim in 1143-9, the Pope only accepted it in 1179), mainly because there were some heresy accusations over Afonso Henriques, saying he prefered the mozarabe rite to the roman rite.

Could this be inserted as a Iberian (kind of) heresy?

 

[Cat Lord]

I've found out something that could be like a heresy (or not)

Historically Iberia had his christian rite, called mozarabe, which was from the visigothic kingdom era, before the gergorian reform.
This rite, although the Church oficially didn't considered it as heresy, tried to replaced it by the new roman rite, which was done by Cluny monks which came with the frankish/burgundian knights that helped king Alfonso VI Leon & Castille and recieved Galicia and Portugal counties/duchies. In the beginning of the 12th century the bishops of Iberia were almost all from the Cluny Order and the mozarabe rite was not used as much. Reading further in the subject, Afonso Henriques, in the second quarter of that century, founded the Kingdom of Portugal, and lay that claim against his cousin (Afonso VII Leon & Castille) and tried to get the Pope's permission. This process had so many delays (although his cousin accepted his claim in 1143-9, the Pope only accepted it in 1179), mainly because there were some heresy accusations over Afonso Henriques, saying he prefered the mozarabe rite to the roman rite.

Could this be inserted as a Iberian (kind of) heresy?

It's interesting but it's very local. I'd rather concentrate on the heresy mainstream events first, and maybe add heresy flavour events later

But feel free to go in the mod forum and begin to sketches ideas over there... I read most of what lands in the "Event scripting" subforum...

Cat

 

[unmerged(5783)]

It seems to me that the significant groups of heretics (or reformers, depending on one's point of view with certain of the last three groups!) should include:

Bogomils (in the Balkans);

Cathari/Albigensians (in Toulouse);

Waldensians (in the southeastern desmenses of France, centered around Lyons);

Lollards (preferable name for "Wycliffites"; in England, centered around Oxford?);

Hussites (in Bohemia).

Of course, these groups (save the Lollards and the Hussites whom they probably influenced through Anne of Bohemia) were quite dissimilar in their teachings and their practices, and widely divergent in how far they deviated from orthodox Catholic Christianity.

One should also note, in view of not being insensitive to modern religious adherents, that Waldensians continue as a Reformed protestant church in the Piemonte, southern Italy, and parts of South America. (There used to be a Waldensian church in the small town of Valdese, North Carolina - named for the Waldensian immigrants from the valleys of Piemonte who settled this area of the North Carolina Piedmont - but this church is now affiliated with the Presbyterians.)

 

[Cat Lord]

It seems to me that the significant groups of heretics (or reformers, depending on one's point of view with certain of the last three groups!) should include:

Bogomils (in the Balkans);

Cathari/Albigensians (in Toulouse);

Waldensians (in the southeastern desmenses of France, centered around Lyons);

Lollards (preferable name for "Wycliffites"; in England, centered around Oxford?);

Hussites (in Bohemia).

Of course, these groups (save the Lollards and the Hussites whom they probably influenced through Anne of Bohemia) were quite dissimilar in their teachings and their practices, and widely divergent in how far they deviated from orthodox Catholic Christianity.

That's the ones I have used (Lollards and Hussites being under the same "Wyclifit" label, as they both based their views on the writing of John Wyclif).

Game-wise, there is an intermediate heresy "level" between bogomiles and cathars which represent the very early non-dualist heretics, most of the time wandering preachers causing trouble in the countryside, during the XIth and XIIth centuries.

Cat

 

[Cat Lord]

And Waldesians were much more dispersed than just South East France, as they were among the first to translate biblical texts in german for example.

Cat

 

[unmerged(5783)]

Regarding the Mozarabic Rite of the Iberian peninsula:

This should not under any circumstances be considered a heresy. It was (and is) a liturgical Rite within the Catholic Church. The major Rites (that is, whole groupings of liturgical ceremonies and the particular words, order, and ceremonials accompanying them) of the Western Church were the Roman (which became the predominant Rite in the West after Charlemagne championed its use in the Frankish kingdom), the Gallican (which includes the Ambrosian Rite of Milan and the Celtic Rite of the British Isles and early mdedieval Irish missionary establishments on the continent), and the Mozarabic.

The Roman Rite became the predominant, indeed nearly the exclusive Rite of the Western Church and continues (now in its "New Order", post-Vatican II form) as the predominant Rite in the Roman Catholic Church. The Ambrosian Rite is still used in the cathedral in Milan, and the Mozarabic Rite in the cathedral in Toledo and a chapel in Salamanca.

These were all liturgical Rites used by thoroughly orthodox Catholic Christians and should not be considered heretical.

 

[unmerged(5783)]

You're absolutely right about the dispersion of the Waldensians through more than southeastern France - in fact, the Bohemian Brethren (known now as the Unitas Fratrum, or, in the English-speaking world as the Moravians) traced their episcopal succession through a south German Waldensian leader known as Michael the Elder, who reputedly stood in some sort of historic catholic episcopal succession.

Just a little connection between the Waldensians and the Hussites/Bohemian Brethren.

And, one should note that there is some controversy about whether Wycliffe had much influence on Jan Hus' teachings - but for game purposes, Wycliffites might be good enough for both groups.