Public Beta Task #5: Court/Dynastic/Diplomatic Flavour Events

[unmerged(3746)]

Public Beta Suggestions: Court/Dynastic/Diplomatic Events

First of all, as many of you have noted rather irritatedly, I have been one of the major critics of CK. Since the problems I have are documented all over the site, there's no need to rehash them. More importantly, however, Paradox has restored my faith in the company by taking a proactive, intelligent course of action with the Public Beta program and seems to be doing a fantastic job of working the problems out. You've silenced one dissenter, turning him back into a loyal fan

So I thought I would do my part to help make the game what it should be. One of the huge problems with CK has always been the dynastic diplomatic setup -- namely the lack of variance in the dynastic chores and duties and the lack of interpersonal relationships between different families and courts. In short, it's not nearly as messy, violent, interesting, or difficult as it should be; any sane, non-kinslaying ruler has absolutely no worries when it comes to his vassals, family, or court, or, frankly, from the violent intentions of foreign princes. I created this thread for the fans of the game to write up some events to be incorporated to spice up the game in this area, allowing the game get more of a feel of a true dynastic ruler. Mr. T/Johann/Cat Lord whoever, feel free to change the topic of this thread to something official if you like the idea.

Before I get to some of my event suggestions and examples, the first, most drastic steps necessary to improve the court/dynastic section of the game is to simply insert a "banish courtier" button so that we can pare down our courts. This is historically accurate and ABSOLUTELY NECSESARY for the game as it progresses; the present interface makes it impossible to properly control/comprehend a huge court. It doesn't need to be complicated; you can either the courtiers to a neighboring court or just make it a masked F12 (die) option. But it needs to be done. Also, vassals who rebel against your vassals or vassals that fight each other should NOT LEAD TO THEM BECOMING INDEPENDENT; this makes an entire historical section of the game, noble in-fighting, completely nonexistent and horrible.

Since I am absolutely clueless about programming, I'll just have to give the gist of some events I'm talking about. If my some of my ideas are unworkable, let's come up with some new ones or correct them; I think the game would truly benefit from a more interesting, unpredictable court system:

------------
#Heir Becomes Rebellious, Seeks to Supplant You
Triggers:
Adult heir with Intrigue rating > 6
Heir with Piety < 200
Heir without traits Honest, Just, or Temperate
Ruler with prestige < 200
Ruler with Intrigue < 9

Increasing modifiers:
King with traits Trusting, Naive Puppet Master, Flamboyant Schemer, Kinslayer, Schizophrenia, Crazed, Heretic, or Lazy
Heir with traits Deceitful, Proud, Intricate Webweaver, or Illusive Shadow

#Move against him with great force!
Lose 200 prestige
Lose 200 gold
Lose 150 piety
Gain trait Selfish
50% heir dies
20% ruler dies
10% gain trait Kinslayer
5% gain trait Stressed

#Appeal to Pope for Arbitration
Lose 500 prestige
Lose 500 gold
Gain 200 piety
Gain traits Coward, Indulgent and Merciful

#Disown Him and Supress the Revolt, but Spare the Child
Lose 150 prestige
Lose 100 gold
Gain trait Merciful, Just, and Selfish
Heir gains trait Bastard

-------------------

#Vassal Aids Enemy in Battle!

Triggers:
Ruler at war
Ruler with prestige < 400
Has vassal with Intrigue > 6
Vassal with piety < 200
(You shouldn't tie these type of events to loyalty ratings simply because it would make them far too rare in the present set-up; this type of thing happened constantly, whereas true seditious uprisings in the game happen almost never)

#We shall have vengeance!
Gain claim on the vassal
War with the vassal
Gain traits Vengeful and Proud

#Lecture Him About Honor and Duty
Gain prestige 50
Lose gold 150
Gain trait Temperate
50% gain trait Merciful
25% gain trait Indulgent


-------------------------

#Bastard Demands to be Legitimized!

Triggers:
Ruler
Has adult bastard heir

#Appeal to Pope on His Behalf!
Lose 100 prestige
Lose 250 piety
Lose 150 gold
40% Chance: Heir loses trait "Bastard"

#Tell Him to Know His Role!
Lose 25 Piety
Heir gains trait Deceitful


-----------------------

#Your Wife Conspires to Place Your Son on the Throne!

Triggers:
Wife with Intrigue rating > 6
Ruler with son
Wife without traits Honest, Just, or Temperate
Ruler with prestige < 250
Ruler with Intrigue < 9

Increasing Mods:
King with traits Trusting, Naive Puppet Master, Flamboyant Schemer, Kinslayer, Schizophrenia, Crazed, Heretic, or Lazy
Wife with traits Deceitful, Proud, Intricate Webweaver, or Illusive Shadow

#To Hell with Both of Them!
Lose 100 piety
Lose 100 prestige
Wife Killed
Son gains trait Bastard
Ruler gains trait Vengeful and Cruel
10% gain trait kinslayer

#The Woman Must Pay!
Lose 50 piety
Lose 50 prestige
Wife killed
25% chance son gains trait vengeful
5% chance ruler gains trait kinslayer

#We shall not Punish Woman for Her Fickle Nature
Lose 20 prestige
Gain trait merciful
25% chance ruler dies

------------------------------

#The Nobles of the Realm Prefer Your Brother to You

Triggers:
Ruler with titled vassal brother
Brother with prestige >200
Brother with Intrigue >6

Increasing Mods:
King with traits Trusting, Naive Puppet Master, Flamboyant Schemer, Kinslayer, Schizophrenia, Crazed, Heretic, or Lazy
Brother with traits Deceitful, Proud, Intricate Webweaver, or Illusive Shadow

#We Shall Suffer No Opposition!
Lose 100 prestige
Lose 200 piety
Ruler gains trait suspicious
Brother dies
35% gain trait kinslayer

#We Are Secure in Our Rule and the Trustworthiness of Our Family!
Gain 25 Prestige
Gain 50 Piety
Ruler gains trait Trusting
25% gains trait Just
15% ruler dies

---------------------------------------

#Your Younger Son is Jealous of his Older Brother and Seeks to Gain his Inheritance!

Triggers:
Ruler with two or more sons
Younger son Intrigue > 6

Increasing Mod:
Younger son with traits Deceitful, Proud, Intricate Webweaver, or Illusive Shadow

#Teach Him to Love and Respect His Family!
Gain 25 piety
50% younger son gains trait Deceitful
50% younger son gains trait Vengeful
20% younger son gains trait modest

#Send Him to Monastery to Learn Christian Values of Brotherhood and Modesty!
Gain 50 piety
Younger son gains trait Modest
40% gains trait chaste
25% gains trait deceitful
25% gains trait merciful

#A Little In-House Politics Will Be Good Training for the Boy!
Younger son gains traits Deceitful & Proud
Younger son intrigue rating plus 2
30% younger son dies (in-house politics get messy!)

-----------------------------------

#Your Spymaster Is Double-Dealing For His Own Benefit!

Trigger:
Spymaster with Intrigue >8
Ruler with Intrigue < 7

#Maybe He's a Little Too Good at His Job!
Lose 25 prestige
Spymaster booted to foreign court

#It Comes with the Territory
50% gain trait Trusting
50% gain trust Indulgent



------------------------------



These are just some ideas. I think, if we can together a big old bootload of such ideas and script them, we can honestly create a true feeling of being a dynastic lord in CK, regardless of the diplomacy engine shortcomings. We can also create a much more interesting, fun game.

Note 1: I really would argue that we can keep the considerable possibility of internal politics turning bloody, ie. death of dynasty members. It is a necessary historical component.

Note 2: We need to come up with more diplomatic events, such as giving foreign courts huge claims on the kingdom's realm, wedding fiascos that result in claims for both sides and lost prestige etc.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Great initiative!

I was intending to bring this one up a little later in the process, but since you've started the ball rolling already, let's make it official (hence the thread name change).

I'll post my thoughts shortly, once I've refered to my notes on the subject.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

First of all, as many of you have noted rather irritatedly, I have been one of the major critics of CK. Since the problems I have are documented all over the site, there's no need to rehash them. More importantly, however, Paradox has restored my faith in the company by taking a proactive, intelligent course of action with the Public Beta program and seems to be doing a fantastic job of working the problems out. You've silenced one dissenter, turning him back into a loyal fan

That's encouraging to read. It's more or less inevitable that we won't be able to reach a finished product that will satisfy everyone's deares wishes or resolve every issue that is out there (after all, some of the issues are a matter of perspective), but if we can achieve the majority of them - particularly the ones about which there is a consensus - then hopefully most people will be reasonably happy.

So I thought I would do my part to help make the game what it should be. One of the huge problems with CK has always been the dynastic diplomatic setup -- namely the lack of variance in the dynastic chores and duties and the lack of interpersonal relationships between different families and courts. In short, it's not nearly as messy, violent, interesting, or difficult as it should be; any sane, non-kinslaying ruler has absolutely no worries when it comes to his vassals, family, or court, or, frankly, from the violent intentions of foreign princes. I created this thread for the fans of the game to write up some events to be incorporated to spice up the game in this area, allowing the game get more of a feel of a true dynastic ruler. Mr. T/Johann/Cat Lord whoever, feel free to change the topic of this thread to something official if you like the idea.

I concur. More blood, intrigue, etc. can only help to spice things up. The critical thing to remember, as you're suggesting ideas, is that there are a couple design objectives that need to be treated as paramount to the overall effect:

• You've seen it 100000000 times, but Johan's infamous "It's a game, not a simulation" quote really is an underlying principle of the game. If it's a choice between historical accuracy and making the game better (more entertaining, challenging, etc.), then gameplay should always be treated as the prime consideration.
  
• While making the game challenging, it is important not to make it impossible for a player. Anything that you do must be tempered by the possibilities that a player may want to be a Count in the middle of the low countries instead of the King of England. There are scripting capabilities that allow events to be tailored somewhat - depending on the character, or the difficulty or aggressiveness level that the game is being played at - and these need to be used thoughtfully.
  
• It's also important not to cut the player's hamstrings too often. You need to reward good play, not immediately seek a way to smack the player back down again for having achieved something.
  
• Unless there is an incredibly good reason not to do so, try to ararnge for flavour events to offer a player two choices. Don't force the player down a particular path just beacuse you think it's cool to do so. Give him/her a choice.
  
• Don't make event choices that are "stupid". If a 2-year-old with the IQ of a head of lettuce could see that option B spells dissaster, then don't bother including it as an option. Try to anticipate situations and player interest, and then give them two (or more) options that both have something good going for them. Alternatively, give them two (or more) roughly equivalent "evil" options and let them pick their poison.
  
• Make sure that the game doesn't turn into a massive click-fest with a billion events popping up to cover the monitor. Obviously, part of this is achieved by adjusting the mtth values or using suitable modifiers, but the event needs to have some purpose that can be governed by a fairly random system.
  
• Try to avoid events that are too specific. Ideally they should apply to as broad a situation as possible. For example, avoid scripting a hundred events that only apply to the King of Bohemia. Try to make it something that would make sense for any King, or perhaps any Catholic King, or maybe any Christian ruler (of any level). Ditto re provinces...don't script something that only applies to Chartres. Try to make it apply to as broad a region or type of province or whatever as possible. The general range of possibilities can be found in the \ck\db\evets\event effects.txt file, most of which can be mixed and matched, or combined to make the targets appropriate..
  
• I'm probably forgetting a few...

Before I get to some of my event suggestions and examples, the first, most drastic steps necessary to improve the court/dynastic section of the game is to simply insert a "banish courtier" button so that we can pare down our courts. This is historically accurate and ABSOLUTELY NECSESARY for the game as it progresses; the present interface makes it impossible to properly control/comprehend a huge court. It doesn't need to be complicated; you can either the courtiers to a neighboring court or just make it a masked F12 (die) option. But it needs to be done.

I will ask Johan (again) whether this is possible. I hate to say it, but it might not be.

Fortunately, though, I have successfully lobbied Johan for the new character condition "court" which checks the number of adults currently residing in a court. We can now - for the first time - script events that use that as a trigger. This means that I could easily script a "My Lord! A virulent dissease has swept through your court!" event that will only trigger if the court size is 10 adults or more, and will randomly kill some number of courtier (even the number of courtiers can be random). I could also script one where if the court gets too large, the courtiers feel that they don't have a large enough say in matters and decide that they'd be better off in someone else's court.

Needless to say, I'm salivating at the range of possibilities that are now open to us for scripting, whereas before I would ahve run a severe risk of utterly wiping out a court by mistake. It will take a while to script them all (and I also want to review exsting events with this in mind) but we'll get 'em in there.

Also, vassals who rebel against your vassals or vassals that fight each other should NOT LEAD TO THEM BECOMING INDEPENDENT; this makes an entire historical section of the game, noble in-fighting, completely nonexistent and horrible.

This is a rather huge change from a coding standpoint. For the time being, let's set this part of the discussion aside. I'll talk to the other folks in beta-land and see if we can come up with a proposal for Johan that wouldn't be too Herculean a task to code. I wonder if some of this could possibly be handled/helped via some nifty events?

Since I am absolutely clueless about programming, I'll just have to give the gist of some events I'm talking about. If my some of my ideas are unworkable, let's come up with some new ones or correct them; I think the game would truly benefit from a more interesting, unpredictable court system:

I'll take a look at these ones shortly...

Thanks again for your renewed interest and initiative. With the active participation of the entire community, this could end up breathing all sorts of new life into the game.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

My 2cents about some things as they are now.
The new "A Nobleman Distinguishes himself in Battle" has probably too high a MTTH. Courts tend to get overcrowded with martial guys. The event also gives some idea that under certain circumstances guys with some court education might get to distinguish themselves during peacetime...
Then again, we now have an event starting rebellions in your demesne when you have a heretic province, saying that provincial population dislikes your tolerance towards heretics, most of the time just because you weren't given a chance to act! One should have a quicker way to respond to heresies, maybe at a greater price.
A small heresy suggestion - include one more for orthodoxy. Russian culture stands devoid of heresies due to their huge x10 MTTH for Bogomiles. In 13th century, Russia had their own grand Bogomil-like heresy, the Strigolniks. Basically, they opposed the official church, its haughty rituals and its secular riches. They should crack down clergy power, pump up peasant power and add ascetism and apostolic poverty.
Looking on the MTTH values for culture spread one might notice, that pagans are actually more eager to adopt your culture than your brothers in faith! A very strange thing indeed, especially while medieval culture was closely tied to religion.
Well, that's it for now...

 

[unmerged(3746)]

Thanks for the encouragement MrT! I was also going to create a thread to address the Byzantine issues, but, if you would prefer to put that off, just say so.

A lot of the events I came up were just rough ideas, but I think having major dynastic events where all the choices are in some way "dangerous" options should be kept in. Dynastic politics should be bloody and risky; there SHOULD be a risk that, if you ignore a seditious relative or noble, you'll end up with your head lopped off. Otherwise, it's just neutered distraction and nuisance; there has to be a reason to be ruthless in certain situations. Scripting events where there's simply a "Choice B: Minor effects that don't really change gameplay" when those events themselves are anything BUT minor keeps the game from being as exciting as I think it could be.


ETA: Just so you don't get the wrong idea, I also intend to come up with some events with huge upside bonuses related to court/dynastic/diplomatic events. I think there needs to be true life/realm threatening situations from your dynasty and vassals and there need to be events that really kick you into another level. In other words, build off one of CK's best traits: the true variety and unpredictability of the games' outcomes. Right now, we have widely divergent results, but not widely divergent gameplay. Jacking up the event engine will accomplish the latter.

 

[unmerged(26691)]

Perhaps some in-fighting among the court officials. This would have VERY high MTTHs (they should happen once per generation at the very most). An equivalent event could be created for the other court positions, too...

You Marshal and Chancellor are fighting for supremacy!

Triggers:
{
Marshal has intrigue > 6
Marshal has traits Selfish OR Deceitful OR Vengeful (? Not sure about last one)
}
OR
{
Chancellor has intrigue > 6
Chancellor has traits Selfish OR Deceitful OR Vengeful (? Not sure about last one)
}

Lower MTTH:
Either of them has a Spy-education
Either of them has a high intrigue
Either of them has Selfish, Deceitful etc.

Higher MTTH:
Either of them has low intrigue
Either of them has Honest, Trusting, Wise etc.

Option A: #Take party for your Chancellor!
50% chance: Marshal dies
80% chance: Marshal gains trait "War Invalid"
Marshal gets -1 martial (loss if influence in general)
Marshal gets -1 intrigue
50% chance Marshal gets -1 intrigue
Marshal gets -0.5 loyalty
Marshal loses 50 prestige
80% chance Chancellor gets trait "Deceitful"
50% chance Chancellor gets trait "Selfish"
Chancellor gets +1 intrigue
20% chance Chancellor gets +1 intrigue
Chancellor gains 30 prestige

Option B: #Take party for your Marshal!
As above, except Chancellor and Marshal reversed, and Chancellor loses 1 diplomacy.

Option C: #Let them fight it out!
30% chance: Marshal dies
30% chance: Chancellor dies
10% chance: Marshal gains trait "War Invalid"
10% chance: Chancelor gains trait "War Invalid"
30% chance: Marshal gains trait "Deceitful"
30% chance: Chancelor gains trait "Deceitful"
30% chance: Marshal gains trait "Selfish"
30% chance: Chancelor gains trait "Selfish"
30% chance: Marshal gains +1 intrigue
30% chance: Chancelor gains +1 intrigue
Marshal loses 0.3 loyalty
Chancelor loses 0.3 loyalty.

 

[unmerged(26764)]

I'd like to resurrect a proposal I floated a long time ago. Can we add a character trait called "grudge" which applies to specific courtiers or vassal which the king has slighted.

Grudge would give a negative loyalty modification. But more importantly, it would also be a tag allowing one to code specific events applying to those vassals that the king has intentionally slighted, giving long to consequences to your actions.

 

[Ilkhold]

Can't this be handled by loyalty?
I only have no idea on how loyalty works with courtiers.

 

[unmerged(26691)]

Can't this be handled by loyalty?
I only have no idea on how loyalty works with courtiers.

I think it's only changed by events, and once its low enough, he leaves.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Thanks for the encouragement MrT! I was also going to create a thread to address the Byzantine issues, but, if you would prefer to put that off, just say so.

Yeah. Hold off on that one, please. We're tackling the Iberian situtation first (task #3) and then we'll move on to Byzantion and surrounding areas. After that, perhaps a little tweaking in the Holy Land and also in the Rus area...not sure how urgent those are though. Let's take those regional issues one step at a time.

A lot of the events I came up were just rough ideas, but I think having major dynastic events where all the choices are in some way "dangerous" options should be kept in. Dynastic politics should be bloody and risky; there SHOULD be a risk that, if you ignore a seditious relative or noble, you'll end up with your head lopped off. Otherwise, it's just neutered distraction and nuisance; there has to be a reason to be ruthless in certain situations. Scripting events where there's simply a "Choice B: Minor effects that don't really change gameplay" when those events themselves are anything BUT minor keeps the game from being as exciting as I think it could be.


ETA: Just so you don't get the wrong idea, I also intend to come up with some events with huge upside bonuses related to court/dynastic/diplomatic events. I think there needs to be true life/realm threatening situations from your dynasty and vassals and there need to be events that really kick you into another level. In other words, build off one of CK's best traits: the true variety and unpredictability of the games' outcomes. Right now, we have widely divergent results, but not widely divergent gameplay. Jacking up the event engine will accomplish the latter.

Yep. The points that I posted above are general imperatives, not a commentary on the events you're suggesting. In fact I hadn't yet had a chance to look through your ideas since I'm working one something else at the moment (ironically, a series of events to purge courts of their non-Chrstian courtiers during the crusades which - partly - address one of the concerns you'd expressed above ).

 

[unmerged(6777)]

I'd like to resurrect a proposal I floated a long time ago. Can we add a character trait called "grudge" which applies to specific courtiers or vassal which the king has slighted.

Grudge would give a negative loyalty modification. But more importantly, it would also be a tag allowing one to code specific events applying to those vassals that the king has intentionally slighted, giving long to consequences to your actions.

Sorry. It is not possible to add traits. The time required to code a new one is simply too great.

 

[Hyzhenhok]

One comment on JuliusMata's events. You seem to be throwing away prestige (and to a lesser degree piety) with little care. Remember that in the early-mid stages of a game, before a family has 3943 kingdom titles, prestige and piety are precious commodities. An event that costs me 200 prestige 100 and piety no matter what I choose will make me reload an autosave, especially if I get it in the first 10 years of play, ESPEICALLY if I'm a duke or count.

 

[unmerged(5822)]

a series of events to purge courts of their non-Chrstian courtiers during the crusades which - partly - address one of the concerns you'd expressed above ).

Will said events offer the opportunity to convert the poor courtier before he gets a private lesson in archery?

 

[unmerged(3746)]

One comment on JuliusMata's events. You seem to be throwing away prestige (and to a lesser degree piety) with little care. Remember that in the early-mid stages of a game, before a family has 3943 kingdom titles, prestige and piety are precious commodities. An event that costs me 200 prestige 100 and piety no matter what I choose will make me reload an autosave, especially if I get it in the first 10 years of play, ESPEICALLY if I'm a duke or count.

As I said earlier, I was just roughly throwing out ideas that people, who know how to program and are more experienced, can smooth out and incorporate. On the other hand, I think it's important to realize that you are greatly nullifying the effect of events in the later game by programming for the first decade or two. I scripted the events for the express purporse of some of them being catastrophic; you might reload, but I know a lot of players, myself included, like rolling with the punches, no matter how severe. And these are certainly many, many times less severe than a king/duke/count going insane; do you think losing, let's say, 50 prestige is a fair way to simulate an outright civil war?

Not that I would have a problem chopping the prestige/piety/cash effects of the events I mentioned in half, but I really think we should try to avoid programming events into an irrelevant nuisance. A game about dynastic politics should have huge repercussions when a dynasty goes to war on itself.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Will said events offer the opportunity to convert the poor courtier before he gets a private lesson in archery?

:rofl:

Yep

Or you may choose to banish said courtier, or (if you're brave) you could defy the pope and keep him/her in your court.

 

[unmerged(27106)]

Not that I would have a problem chopping the prestige/piety/cash effects of the events I mentioned in half, but I really think we should try to avoid programming events into an irrelevant nuisance. A game about dynastic politics should have huge repercussions when a dynasty goes to war on itself.

I believe that you can code an event to cost a certain percentage of a player's piety/prestige/gold, rather than a set ammount. Thus, more prestigious characters get hit harder (which would make sense, as they are more in the public eye, as it were) where poorer counts suffer less (as nobody really cares a whole lot.) If anyone gets around to scripting, a percentage value might be a better way to go.

 

[unmerged(3746)]

I believe that you can code an event to cost a certain percentage of a player's piety/prestige/gold, rather than a set ammount. Thus, more prestigious characters get hit harder (which would make sense, as they are more in the public eye, as it were) where poorer counts suffer less (as nobody really cares a whole lot.) If anyone gets around to scripting, a percentage value might be a better way to go.

I would actually agree entirely. I had no idea that was feasible.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Strictly speaking, it's a little tricky for anything other than gold...but yes, it's feasible.

effect = { type = gold scale = V }

The value assigned to V is multiplied to the annual amount of gold that the player receives so, for instance, you could have an event that gives players a regiment of troops and deducts 3 month's worth of gold.

example:

	action_a = {#Deus Vult!
		effect = { 	type = add_regiment
				strength = {
					militia = 1000
					archers = 500
				}
		}
		effect = {  type = gold scale = -0.25 }
	}

 

[unmerged(3746)]

Would it be feasible to handle it like: a year's worth of gold, and a 1/3 of the ruler's piety and prestige? Are piety and prestige irrevocably tied to monthly increases? If so, it'll be extremely hard to make that matter and would be better to simply rely on a hard number to add/subtract, taking into consideration how strongly it affects the early game and how little it affects the late game.

Would it be feasible, for example, to have so that rulers with prestige less than, say, 100 get a fixed amount subtracted and rulers with prestige > 100 are subtracted by a fraction. We could replicate the coding for numerous events if it's complicated, but I think it would be worth it. I would hate for a 500 prestige king to lose 50 prestige in an overt civil war just so a king with 50 prestige isn't bankrupted. And I'd also hate for a ruler with 3 prestige to lose 1 prestige due to an overt civil war: he SHOULD have a prestige debt.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

By having two different versions of the event, it's possible to have one that effects those with 100 > prestige and those with 100 < prestige differently.