Public Beta: Task #3 - 1066 Iberian tech situation (several merged threads)

[The Yogi]

BTW, quite apart from the nomenclature issue, somehthing has to be done about the piercing weapon effects.

The first innovation in the field of polearms introduced in this era was in fact the couched lance used by western knights, so that should be the I level of piercing weapons, which would include not only renaming, but also changing the innovation effect to give bonus to knights, not to pikemen.

BTW, great innitiative, Mad King James!

 

[Damocles]

BTW, quite apart from the nomenclature issue, somehthing has to be done about the piercing weapon effects.

The first innovation in the field of polearms introduced in this era was in fact the couched lance used by western knights, so that should be the I level of piercing weapons, which would include not only renaming, but also changing the innovation effect to give bonus to knights, not to pikemen.

I agree 100% on that! The pikeman really should be far down the list, so that it dosen't emerge until the 14th century, anyhow.

 

[Sera]

"Damascus Steel" was a widely known term for superior metal armour and weapons and the Damascene metal working technique originated here. As such Damascus should likely have the high start level of Slash Weapon, Piercing Weapons, Chain Armour in the game. Probably with a certain amount of "splash effect". Toledo, who produced the best weapons in Europe, used this technique in the forging of their blades.

"During the long years of the Crusades, the armies of Europe found themselves badly outnumbered. Not only were there more Saracens than Crusaders in the Holy Land, but the armies of Islam were much better equipped. They rode sleek, swift horses bred for the hot desert climate, wore a chainmail light enough to provide them maximum mobility yet strong enough to stop European blades, and used weapons made of a steel so well-forged that it bent under pressure without breaking, yet held an edge so sharp it could cleave a man in half with only the force behind one arm. What was this secret steel of the Near East, its forging guarded so well by the swordsmiths of Syria?

That steel was called Damascus steel, a term used by Crusaders to describe the metal used by the artisans and swordsmiths of Damascus, Syria. These metalworkers, particularly during the Middle Ages, were famous for their ability to hammer and temper wootz steel into fine and supple blades."

I'd suggest that Damascus start with one or two levels higher than the surrounding areas and Toledo likewise but restricted to Slashing Weapons technique.

 

[Damocles]

It is still important to use the tech levels though to reflect the Western European aptitude for the knightly charge which could often break Saracen positions if they allowed themselves to be caught by it. Though some may disbelieve, they were also, incredibly aggressive...As can be seen in the Crusades launched at the holy land, that which took Sicily and the Reconquista.

This is not true for Orthodox Byzantium however whom was gobbled up in reverse.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

From gameplay pov Lance is much better advance than Pike, so it is reasonable to give Lance after Pike.

 

[Sera]

It is still important to use the tech levels though to reflect the Western European aptitude for the knightly charge which could often break Saracen positions if they allowed themselves to be caught by it. Though some may disbelieve, they were also, incredibly aggressive...As can be seen in the Crusades launched at the holy land, that which took Sicily and the Reconquista.

This is not true for Orthodox Byzantium however whom was gobbled up in reverse.

Couldn't agree more! Large areas in Europe should have Offensive Tactics Level 1. The areas most reknown for their knights; Normans (in Italy, France and England), certain Frank and German areas could do with Level 2.

Seems to me Catholic Crusaders were outnumbered, outequipped, but seldom outflanked. Tactics and possible better marshals should be the main advantage of Europeans over Muslims (Mongols should of course be superior still).

 

[Damocles]

Large areas in Europe should have Offensive Tactics Level 1. The areas most reknown for their knights; Normans (in Italy, France and England), certain Frank and German areas could do with Level 2.

That should definitely be fixed. And despite the Lance giving better bonuses then the Pike, it should still come first, to give the knights a higher impact in the start of the game. The 11th-12th century were the pinnacle of the knightly charge on the battlefield.

The 13th century was a time of transition, where certain tactics began to be explored for the first time, such as in the Anglo-Scot wars.

One has only to look at the disasters Knighthood suffered in the 14th and 15th century to realize why it was an utter joke before even the dawn of the 16th century. After nearly a thousand years of prevalence, by the 1300-1400s, it ended with spectacularly violent failure. Such as at Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt.

 

[Woreczko]

Well, from both, historical and logical reasons it`s quite silly, that one tech boosts both knights and their arch-enemies - pikemen. While they used weapons very similar to each other, the training and therefore tactics required to use them effectively was absolutely different.
Yes, I realize, that development of knight-like cavalry was one of the main reasons of emergence of pikemen on the battlefield, but I don`t think you would find a province in middle ages, which was famous both for it`s lance - cavalry (be it light or heavy) for pikemen, what is the case in CK.

As you see, I`d rather have military techs heavily revised. Maybe like this (I ignore the nomenclature here):
1. Pierce weapons
- Primary unit to boost: pikemen
- Secondary: heavy_inf

2. Slash weapons (cavalry weapons in this case)
- Primary: knights, light cav

3. Crush weapons (err.. personal weapons?)
- Primary: heavy_inf
- Secondary: pikemen, militia, knights

4. Bows
- Primary: archers, horse archers
- Secondary: militia

5. Crossbows
- Primary: archers
- Secondary: light cav

Primary means, that unit gains higher attack values and gains some %bonuses vs certain other units
Secondary - it only gains attack values inferior to "primary" ones and no % bonuses.

Above proposition has one hole for sure - slash weapons boosts both heavy and light cav, which is not so good. Ideally we could steal one tech from tactics section . Anyway, it`s by no means a final proposal, I just wanted to point out, that current military tech setup has little logic in some cases.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Let's just give everyone level 5 of everything, jack all the modifiers for all techs to +1000000, and be done with it.

 

[The Yogi]

Let's just give everyone level 5 of everything, jack all the modifiers for all techs to +1000000, and be done with it.

It's not that I don't sense the irony, I just don't see who its aimed at. Nobody in this thread has proposed anything that could even remotely deserve such ridicule from a mod.

For myself, I can only say that renaming tech is important just so that most provinces can start at Tech 0 in most areas without causing an eyesore.

 

[NeilJT]

I agree with Mr. T

Everyone seems to be wanting to give their favoured regions level 2 techs in everything they vaguely specialised in, with no respect for playability or balance...

Techs are important, and they spead. While it might be tempting to give Normandy a level 2 technology in 1066, one must be aware that by 1150 it'll probably have reached all of northern France, and any advantage to the Normans will have vanished.

Rant mode:

I don't want to play the toadie 'Paradox know what they are doing' line but to be honest for anyone who isn't a history nut, and indeed probably many people who are, the tech names are just indicators of status, which might give a hint to which bonuses they provide. I'd prefer a name which as a non expert I can instantly understand and appreciate than a correct, but less meaningless to me personally, title.

It seems to me that Paradox always has problems with making it's games so modifiable - people always want to modify them, then get pissed off when they're prefered setup isn't universaly acclaimed or incorported. I've never felt the need to install a mod to Crusader Kings as in the 'vanilla' form it is damned good fun to play, and challenging (to me!). Anyway, I've gone off track, so maybe its time to end this post.

 

[Sera]

I agree with Mr. T

Everyone seems to be wanting to give their favoured regions level 2 techs in everything they vaguely specialised in, with no respect for playability or balance...

Techs are important, and they spead. While it might be tempting to give Normandy a level 2 technology in 1066, one must be aware that by 1150 it'll probably have reached all of northern France, and any advantage to the Normans will have vanished.

Are you serious? As far as I can see all suggestions here has been made just because they unlike the original tech emplacement has a basis in reality.

Considering the history of the Normans I'd say not providing them with certain advantages over contemporary Europeans would be a basis against them. And yes, technology spreads and one nations advantage is thus lost over time. How do you think for instance the Russians managed to cast off the Mongol yoke? Adapting Mongol tactics that's how.

 

[Mad King James]

Well, it can be argued that the Russians (well Muscovy anyways) WERE "the mongols" in the first place

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Well, I would rather drop moslem / byzantine techs like MKJ's province rework proposal goes and not have too many war techs with everyone at start. Remember that the biggest gap in combat effectiveness is between level 0 and level 1.

 

[Sera]

Well, it can be argued that the Russians (well Muscovy anyways) WERE "the mongols" in the first place

Well, if that isn't adaption, I don't know what is.

Remember that the biggest gap in combat effectiveness is between level 0 and level 1.

Which is why I've proposed lowering it, no one listens to me though.

 

[Damocles]

I don't want to play the toadie 'Paradox know what they are doing' line QUOTE]

I don't think even Paradox would claim that 100% of the time..

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Which is why I have proposed lowering it, no one listens to me though.

Well, I presume changing the effects of the techs is not something Paradox people would do lightly and without a very good and tested alternative, so we are better off concentrating building with bricks we have instead of hoping getting new bricks.

 

[Mad King James]

Has anyone given my reworking a shot yet?

 

[Damocles]

Has anyone given my reworking a shot yet?

MKJ, realize that changing all the techs in the file would take ages. And its the main reason it hasn't been done, rather then some master plan by Paradox that its perfectly balanced atm.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Has anyone given my reworking a shot yet?

I thought to do so now, will report observations afterwards.