Public Beta: Task #3 - 1066 Iberian tech situation (several merged threads)

[The Yogi]

Actually, "Sword level I" would make me suffer less, if I do not have it in 1066, than "Shortsword".

Also, even if names where changed, that doesn't solve the ahistorical disparity between muslim techs and christian techs.

 

[unmerged(5783)]

I agree completely with The Yogi - either rename or grant many of these weapons/armor technologies to begin with, and narrow the arms gap between the Muslims and the Christian Europeans.

Having the scenario set up such that the English, the Welsh, the Franks, etc. don't have longspears or shortswords or shortbows or chain shirts in the mid-11th century is bothersome in its inaccuracy.

 

[I Killed Kenny]

Well, I think the "separation" of iberia is a step into the right decision. But still he military advantage of the muslims is very big, bigger that is should. Passing a river a muslem army off 600, destroyed my 850 bragantines soldires... And this hapened exacly in the begging of the game. But now a bigger problem. Because the muslims are now smaller, they will get higher tech more quickly. So the advantage will be even bigger...


And also, please re-work the color setup.. Now in Iberia there are 2 couples of nations with the same color...




EDIT: Mr. T I thought you said only a castilian and a catalan ruler could call a cruzade there... Or was it only them could receive reinforces ( cruzader events ) ?

 

[Damocles]

This is a well known issue.

Its pretty much just waiting for someone to go through and add all the needed techs to the Christians....Which will take a long time.

 

[Mad King James]

I interpret it not as 'knowing' those techs, but rather the widespread use of those technologies. This is why I think the following should be used:

Iberians: one level of slash, chainmail, crossbow, and offensive
Taifas: one level of slash, leather, bow
French: one level of chainmail, slash, crush, crossbow
English, Germans, Saxons & Vikings: one level of chainmail, pierce and crush
Italians: one level of chainmail, pierce, slash, crossbow & defensive
Welsh: two levels of bow, one level of pierce and defensive
Scots: one level of pierce and defensive
Byzantines: one level of leather, pierce, slash, bow and defensive
Arabs, Northafricans & Turks: one level of leather, slash, pierce, bow and offensive
Nubians: one level of leather, slash, pierce, bow and defensive
Magyars, Cumans: one level of slash, bow, leather, pierce, offensive
Croatians: one level of leather, crush, slash
Lithuanians, Poles, Czechs, western Slavs, Russians, Balts: one level of crush, chainmail
Finns, Lapps, Pechenegs & etc: zilch

 

[Sera]

I know Johan likes to say it's a game not a simulation, yet the ahistorcial feel the tech system and other aspects provide does diminish immersion to a significant degree. This doesn't affect just Weapons and Armour; researching Plows and Pig Farming centuries or millennias after they were historically introduced to Europe is plain bad decision making when it comes to the naming of techs.

I appreciate tech emplacement constitute a large part of the challenge/difficulty rating, and is important to avoid an early steamrolling of Muslim areas, but surely there are ways of achieving this without resorting to such historical discrepancies. Yogi got it right, either change the names or make the tech map more historical correct, preferably both.

Another issue I have difficulties understanding is why the developers decided on affording each successive military tech level such huge bonuses. The difference between tech 0 and 2 is staggering and does no way represent merely a slight improvement of weapon/armour tech as it is supposed to.

How to make the game more historical and realistic, yet keep Muslims as a threat throughout the duration of the game?
• More historical representation of techs.
• Diminish the weapon and armour bonus disparity.
• Allow Muslims to have vassals.
• Give Muslim Culture a slight troop boost (preferably without affecting base income).
• Make the AI more inclinded to enter alliances against regional expansionists (both of defensive and offensive nature).
• Jihad. Perhaps as troop events that can be sparked if certain core Muslim areas fall or are threatened in addition to attack by generic troops.

 

[Damocles]

really, the starting tech will probably be fixed as soon as someone, anyone, is buggered enough to go into a file and change it. Anyone could probably do it and send it to MrT for review.

It'll take a hell of a long time though. When I manually changed around the Iberian starting tech setup and the classes, it took two. For just Iberia.

 

[Sera]

Welsh: two levels of bow, one level of pierce and defensive

I appreciate "English" (Welsh) Longbow reputation, but it was far from the be all and end all of archery. The Sami peoples of Norway, Sweden and Finland had developed laminated wood bows, while the Middle Eastern states (I assume North African and Iberian Muslims too) had made use of bone-wood-hide composite bows, both of which were inch for inch superior bows to any solid wood bow. The pull strength of the the double recurve sinew-horn-wood composite bows of the Mongols were several times that of the much larger English Longbow.

My take on bow tech emplacement: All muslims start with level 2, Wales and Northern Nordic regions with level 1. Rest of Europe level 0. Mongols level 4 (max?)

 

[Mad King James]

I appreciate "English" (Welsh) Longbow reputation, but it was far from the be all and end all of archery. The Sami peoples of Norway, Sweden and Finland had developed laminated wood bows, while the Middle Eastern states (I assume North African and Iberian Muslims too) had made use of bone-wood-hide composite bows, both of which were inch for inch superior bows to any solid wood bow. The pull strength of the the double recurve sinew-horn-wood composite bows of the Mongols were several times that of the much larger English Longbow.

My take on bow tech emplacement: All muslims start with level 2, Wales and Northern Nordic regions with level 1. Rest of Europe level 0. Mongols level 4 (max?)

You must have missed the first sentence. It isn't about who posesses the technology, but whether they made widespread use of the weapon, and had the associated tactics to back it up. While the Sami had bows just as good as the welsh, they mostly used them for hunting.
Most arab/northafrican/turkish archers used shortbows, as learning to use a longbow is difficult and extremely time consuming.
The welsh had an entire culture that revolved around the longbow, that is why they deserve to have the best archers in the world.

 

[The Yogi]

Actually, I think the best thing would be to rename. Then we could let most areas begin with 0 all across and add only a few for the most developed areas - a huge gain for all future scenario writing.

For example, since the "standard" military sword of 1066 AD could best be described as a broadsword (that goes for muslim states as well), that should be the name of Level 0. The next significant development was the longsword, so that's Level 1. The next level, historically, would be the bastard sword in the 15th(?) century, but to fill the gap between the longsword and the bastard sword we could use "Sword of War", which was another name for the Longsword IIRC to represent improvements in the same general type of weapon. If a good historical name isn't there, just latch on "improved...", for example; broadsword, longsword, improved longsword, bastard sword.

As a rule of thumb, any kind of equipment that was in (next to) universal use (or superceded in some areas by better kinds) in 1066 AD should be considered Level 0. That shouldn't be so hard since, as menitoned before, with a few notable exceptions (bow, plate) arms and armour of the era were pretty evenly developed and used.

 

[Sera]

"The origin of the English longbow is lost in the mist of time. The currently accepted theory was set at the turn of the twelfth century by Morris in his superb study, The Welsh Wars of Edward I. Morris maintained the weapon was of Welsh descent and was introduced into England's military arsenal around the turn of the fourteenth century."

In addition to the accepted theory being the Welsh Longbow wasn't even developed at the start of the 1066 campaign (evident in inscriptions from the Norman-Venta encounters), I don't think you take into account the time needed to use the war longbow with it's high draw-weight effectively. It took years of training.

As for the Welsh being the best archers in the world, it sounds like a very anglophile conclusion. I would think a number of Eastern peoples (including Mongols) with their use of double recurve composite bows were superior.

Therefore my position stands, giving the Welsh a level 2 advantage is too much.

 

[Sera]

Actually, I think the best thing would be to rename. Then we could let most areas begin with 0 all across and add only a few for the most developed areas - a huge gain for all future scenario writing.

I'm in favour of renaming too, but it must be secondary to accurate historical representation in the terms of which region possessed which sophistication.

 

[The Yogi]

I'm in favour of renaming too, but it must be secondary to accurate historical representation in the terms of which region possessed which sophistication.

Amen to that, within reason. If a tech was known in only 2/3rds of the CK world, then it must be at least a Level 1 Tech to avoid its spread to non-historical areas. If its a single province that didn't know it, then I think we can overlook that.

 

[Damocles]

The phenomena of the Welsh Yeoman dates back to Edward Longshanks in the late 13th century who made it mandatory for them to practice with the longbow and offered incentives. Thus, over the next two hundred years, until the late 15th century, there developed a culture of bowmanship that for direct application to war, was unparalled in *western* Europe. They did this because it was discovered that bringing home loot was more profitable then farming.

Bear in mind, that the Welsh Yeoman didn't pay dividends until the Hundred Years War under Edward III, two generations later. Which is why it was said that to train a good archer, you needed to begin with his grandfather.

So starting the Welsh with anymore bow technology then anyone else in 1066 is unfounded.

The main thing is that the nobles should have like 50% power in most provines instead of this 25/25/25/25 BS, and they need to have Feudal contract laws and some techs which directly raise knights. Afterall, Norman Knights were absolutely renowned in this period, and the 11th century was actually the *HEYDAY* of the power of the knightly charge, which had much to do with the success of the 1st crusade.

 

[The Yogi]

As for the Welsh being the best archers in the world, it sounds like a very anglophile conclusion. I would think a number of Eastern peoples (including Mongols) with their use of double recurve composite bows were superior.

Therefore my position stands, giving the Welsh a level 2 advantage is too much.

I would agree with this. The widespread military use of the Welsh Longbow is very much posterior to 1066. In game terms, it could easily be because the ruler of Wales has been very insistent on bow development.

In 1066, the best archers (and arch-makers) in the world would be the mounted steppe peoples, no question about that.

BTW, while I have always believed that the Turks, as one of those steppe peoples used the compound bow, I recently read about 3rd Crusade foot soldiers who had so many turkish arrows in their gambesons (padded leather garments, foot troops couldn't afford chainmail) that they looked like porcupines but where still unhurt. That would indicate that indeed, the Turks used (or had reverted to using) ordinary shortbows rather than compound bows. The mameluks later did use compound bows though.

 

[Sera]

The main thing is that the nobles should have like 50% power in most provines instead of this 25/25/25/25 BS, and they need to have Feudal contract laws and some techs which directly raise knights. Afterall, Norman Knights were absolutely renowned in this period, and the 11th century was actually the *HEYDAY* of the power of the knightly charge, which had much to do with the success of the 1st crusade.

The charge of the not-so-light brigade.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

I know Johan likes to say it's a game not a simulation, yet the ahistorcial feel the tech system and other aspects provide does diminish immersion to a significant degree. This doesn't affect just Weapons and Armour; researching Plows and Pig Farming centuries or millennias after they were historically introduced to Europe is plain bad decision making when it comes to the naming of techs.

The trouble is that most people look at "chicken farming" and imediately scoff at the notion that it can be "discovered" in this era. That's because they are assuming that the implication is that the province is changing from a state of "we don't know anything about chickens" to "now we've 'disvovered' chickens". This sin't the case.

The CK era was a time in Eriope when farming practices finally began to exceed the local demands for a product and were capable of being managed as a comodity for inter-provincial and inter-demesne trade. This means that it began to make the shift from a subsistance practice (at a canton/barony level) to being a means whereby someone culd become extremely wealthy. That process of commercialization is what the "chicken farming" advance is meant to indicate.

Similarly, when we talk about weapons advances we're typically talking about wide-spread integrated usage as a larger cohesive unit, and the ability to manufacture those weapons, outfit a regiment with them, and train them in its tactics and usage.

That said...

The principle issue is actually not what they're called, but rather their function. Arguably we could just as easily have called it "broad sword level 1", then "broad sword level 2", etc. With each advance comes an improvement in the capabilities of the troops, and that's the primary intent of those technologies.

As I said, when I posted almost an identical post to this one some 6 months ago, if someone cares to go through the technology folder and come up with a complete, alternative set of nomentclature for all of the advances and makes sure that the function of those advances is identical to the items currently in place, we'd take a pretty serious, close look at it.

And, as I've stated several timesin the last couple of weeks, we're certainly open to some rather sweeping file revisions if they achieve the goal of improving game balance. Solmyr's currently doing exactly that with the Iberian setup. If someone else would like to review, tweak, and revise the otehr 900 provinces I'd be happy to take a look. The only issue would then be that the design intent is that it should be extremely difficult (if not impossible) for anyone to max out on tech. Giving everyone in the world Level1 of something means that we'd eliminate Level 1 and add a level 6 (actually, we'd just shift everyting dwon a notch).

 

[Mad King James]

I've taken a crack at making things a little more fair in 1066
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3467836

 

[Sera]

Great initiative, the tech emplacement for sure needs adressing. I refuse to use Paradox's naming of techs though, as they are clearly ahistorical. Suffice to use weapon/armour category and level. My comments:

"French and Normans start out with chained leather, handaxes and level 1 crossbows"
Consider replacing handaxes and crossbows with Slash and Piercing Weapons Level 1. They were not really noted for their bowmen. Likewise consider Plate Armour Level 1 (really predates the roman empire). This was the Norman heyday, they should be made slightly superior to contemporaries imo.

"Cumans and Hungarians get soft leather, shortbows and shortswords"
Consider giving these Bows Level 2. The Skythian (pre-Christian), Hun (used to supress Rome), Avar, Hungarian Bows - all double recurve composite bows (usable from horseback), had their origins here and their archers were likely among the finest in the world. Also consider giving Cumans Archer Cavalry.

"Taifas downgraded to shortbow, soft leather, longspear, shortsword"
Toledo has been known to make superior blades since before Hannibal and well past the timeline covered in CK. Consider giving Toledo Slash Weapons Level 2.

(repost from MKJ's mod comment thread)

 

[The Yogi]

This is the age of the mailed Knight, and while plate armour had been known since ancient times, it wasn't used in the 11th century. So I'd propose to give all Feudal countries (France, Germany, England, Italy and Iberia)

Sword level II
Mail armour level II

Apart from any other considerations.