Public Beta: Task #3 - 1066 Iberian tech situation (several merged threads)

[unmerged(35078)]

Hello,

I'm new to the forums but have played most of the paradox games and really enjoy CK... I like playing the spanish :wacko: in CK but do find it hard (if not impossible) with vanilla CK! Solomyr's patch has made it more playable and enjoyable so why not look more closely at what he has done.

Claims on each other by the muslims is a good starting point and maybe blocked alliances to not get a domino DOW when a vassal or ally declares war on a muslims country. I have seen the AI start huge wars dominoing to nearly every muslim country against Iberians and allies. i don't know if that is possible with events?

Question: does the AI take into account the size of armies or demense, reputation or other factors (such as allies of who you are DOW) that might contribute to their death before declaring war on another country/sheikdom, etc?

Hopefully these betas, where vassals seek peace when a leige does and the crusades working properly will make vanilla CK much more enjoyable game

 

[Sera]

Reducing the amount of bonus each tech level gives should do a lot to even the playing field, they are quite simply overpowered as is. As I've said before; an increased edged tech level is supposed to simulate a slightly sharper sword, not having an extra arm and hand grafted to the swordsman.

 

[unmerged(8351)]

I like the idea of giving the nobles in iberia more power as they did have a huge military class. This would make their armies a little stronger. Maybe give the Taifas popular law or something with lots of crappy troops to represent their inferior levies???

 

[Damocles]

Hey MrT,

Basically, for starting around 1066, all of the Crusader military tech is WAY underpowered and misrepresented. They don't begin with swords or chainmail at all!

Conversly, the Orthodox and Muslims have two in all of these techs, which is also terribly backward.

For a perfect tech setup, the Orthodox and Muslims should have better 'light' military techs, such as leather and bows as well as very good cultural techs. These will give bonuses to light cavalry and light infantry. The starting laws and gov are already pretty much set (but could use significant tweaking) to have them begin with laws that favor light infantry.

On the other hand, the Europeans should have very good 'heavy' tech setup in the start, which gives bonus to knights and heavy infantry.

Don't forget that vastly outnumbered crusaders were often able to defeat greater numbers of Muslims due to their heavier armor and charging. From Richard the Lionhearted to El Cid...

 

[Grell74]

Since 1.03 I mod Iberia in the following way:

-Iberian Taifas get NO military techs (historically they got steamrolled by the North African Muslims - Murabatins / Almohads, Almoravids). Furthermore in 1066 they had lost many wars to Ramiro King of Castile.

-I increase the stats of the North African Muslims and give the al-Murabats claims on every Taifa. This is historical and balance gameplay as inter-muslim fighting gives the Christians some chance.

- Change the Christians to Feudal Contract

-DECREASE the fertility of King of Galicha and health of king of Castile (to facilitate unification inheritence and historical reality).

-Decrease Muslim Taifa stats, especially stewardship which gives them huge armies. Raise the stewardhip of Aragon to 10, and increase some of the other Christian rulers

-Give Iberian Christians another Castle tech and chain tech.

RESULTS: The Christians still have it tough but the game is MUCH more balanced, and indicative of historical events.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Why reinvent the wheel, MrT? Talk to Solmyr and copy his Iberian setup for starters.

I agree whole-heartedly. I was hoping to reduce the amount of searching and careful comparative merging that I would need to do by getting a condensed synopsis of the changes he made that work particularly well and then inserting it into some of the other progress that has been made in beta. Adopting his changes wholesale are probably not feasible (due to other considerations). We shall see. Anyway, I'm just trying to balance my workload on other projects against the next CK beta patch requirements and time frame. If necessary, I will go and dig up Solmyr's mod, run a complete analysis of the exact changes made in it, lift those portions that are suitable for the overall changes we want to make and have already made, and then build it into a future patch. That will take a bit of time, but I'll let you know how it goes. With luck, we might get it into 1.05.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Hey MrT,

Basically, for starting around 1066, all of the Crusader military tech is WAY underpowered and misrepresented. They don't begin with swords or chainmail at all!

Conversly, the Orthodox and Muslims have two in all of these techs, which is also terribly backward.

For a perfect tech setup, the Orthodox and Muslims should have better 'light' military techs, such as leather and bows as well as very good cultural techs. These will give bonuses to light cavalry and light infantry. The starting laws and gov are already pretty much set (but could use significant tweaking) to have them begin with laws that favor light infantry.

On the other hand, the Europeans should have very good 'heavy' tech setup in the start, which gives bonus to knights and heavy infantry.

Don't forget that vastly outnumbered crusaders were often able to defeat greater numbers of Muslims due to their heavier armor and charging. From Richard the Lionhearted to El Cid...

Good points. When parsing the file I noted that the Christian Iberians are definitely "bottom of the barrel" types and generallly very light on noble power. Something like that is pretty much what I had in mind tech-wise.

The added Moslem claims that several people mention above are already in a working patch that we have in beta (to some degree) so that's certainly another component that will help. The crusades, too, should mitigate things a little, so perhaps the combination of all three changes (made in moderation) will achieve the desired results without giving the Christian Iberians an indue edge over the French.

 

[Damocles]

Good points. When parsing the file I noted that the Christian Iberians are definitely "bottom of the barrel" types and generallly very light on noble power. Something like that is pretty much what I had in mind tech-wise.

The added Moslem claims that several people mention above are already in a working patch that we have in beta (to some degree) so that's certainly another component that will help. The crusades, too, should mitigate things a little, so perhaps the combination of all three changes (made in moderation) will achieve the desired results without giving the Christian Iberians an indue edge over the French.

I certainly hope so. Though it is such a shame to see the Byzantines with two slots in every tech. They weren't exactly Cataphracts and Roman legions at this time. The army was in terrible shape and very disorganized. They couldn't even have resisted the Crusaders, which is why Manuel appeased them. Manzikert had alot to do with this, but many of the reasons that Manzikert occurred were because of the state of affairs at this time. They should lose all of their 'heavy' military tech. They mostly had a bunch of light, conscripted troops. They were also very poor from around the 13th century on, due to the Venetian and Genoan stranglehold on their economy.

The Arabs and Orthodox were always able to call on larger armies, but man for man, the 'European' heavy cavalry charge was still the overwhelming superior on the battlefield. It was only the horse archers of Saladin and the Mongols that put a dent in it...And that one thing the engine already models well enough. Knights are just severely underpowered. If anything, some of the Knightly techs deserve 2 or 3 pips, because of the easy access of many starting techs which put serious dents in them. Like crossbows etc.

EDIT: By the by, historically, the ruler of Leon managed to conquer the other Iberian kingdoms before turning on the Muslims during the infamous 'El Cid' period. Later on, they broke apart again however...Then merged again...

 

[Solmyr]

Here's a short synopsis of what's been done in the bugfix, MrT, in case it's helpful:

- Each taifa gets claims on every Iberian province held by other taifas (or at least the major ones - I didn't give the small sheiks any claims). This is probably the most important thing as it greatly reduces the chance of the taifas allying, at least initially, and makes it more likely for them to fight each other.
- Some taifas start the scenario at war. Badajoz vs Sevilla and Sevilla vs Cordoba especially.
- Some base income increased in the Christian capitals and slightly decreased in the Muslim ones.
- Christians have feudal contract in the beginning, so they get knights in their hill/mountain provinces.
- Decreased Muslim military tech and increased Christian military tech. Also Christian capitals have small castles in them.

 

[Earl Uhtred]

- Narrow the practical distinction between weapon techs. If necessary, rename early technologies.

- In Muslim lands in the west, 'retreat' high technology to a handful of bastions. IE give rural Spain and North Africa tech levels similar or equal to the rest of western Europe with only a few isolated places Cordoba, Seville and Granada (frx) as advanced as the East.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Here's a short synopsis of what's been done in the bugfix, MrT, in case it's helpful:

- Each taifa gets claims on every Iberian province held by other taifas (or at least the major ones - I didn't give the small sheiks any claims). This is probably the most important thing as it greatly reduces the chance of the taifas allying, at least initially, and makes it more likely for them to fight each other.
- Some taifas start the scenario at war. Badajoz vs Sevilla and Sevilla vs Cordoba especially.
- Some base income increased in the Christian capitals and slightly decreased in the Muslim ones.
- Christians have feudal contract in the beginning, so they get knights in their hill/mountain provinces.
- Decreased Muslim military tech and increased Christian military tech. Also Christian capitals have small castles in them.

Very helpful indeed. Thanks!

 

[unmerged(24449)]

Chris1959

Make it "easier" and more likely for the Christian states to form alliances with the powerful Moslem states.

I believe it was something that historically happened and it helps to counterbalance the Moslem super alliances.

Playing as Leon a fortuitous and early allince with Cordoba seemed to keep the other Moslems of my back, also allowed me to pick up the pieces from intra moslem wars.

 

[Lucius Sulla]

Solmyr's mod is excellent, and is closer to perfection to anything else I have seen. I have tried a pair of games in the other side of the world, getting a good view at what happened, and it felt incredibly historical.

One thing, about the "Jimenez Setup" (that is, all the iberian kingdoms descendants of the same dinasty: Aragon, Navarra in two degrees, and Leon, Galicia and Castilla in one degree). Just a reminder of what happened historically:

Navarra and Aragón kept on fighting against each other with each new king, until Alfonso I of Aragon (the 'Batallador', which could be translated as 'the-guy-who-battles-a-lot) conquered Zaragoza and merged his dinasty with the Barcelona house via his only daughter (game over for him).

The main thing is the thing with Castilla, León and Galicia.

The problem is that historically Sancho (Castilla), Alfonso (León) and García (Galicia) hated each other's guts so much they will not rest until they own the other two realms they don't have.

Sancho has the muscle (was a good general and had the best general of his time, El Cid, as Marshal), Alfonso has the brain (he was one of the finest politicians of his time... and actually arranged the murder of his brother without getting the 'kinslayer' trait) and García has... nothing (he got ridiculed and defeated by his brothers AND his nobles at every chance). He was obviously a nullity at the side of his two elder brothers.

Anyway, Sancho's stats are fine, but I would add to him the 'chaste' trait (it seemed he never stopped home to produce heirs, be it war or not... if he has already this trait, wack me). Alfonso is alright, if anything I would change his "grey eminece" trait for "illusory shadow", fits him better. And I would add stress and lower even a bit more Garcia's stats, to reflect them perfectly as they were.

With a unified Castilla-Leon-Galicia, you have a potence able to push back, with Solmyrs mod the reconquista as it was historically. I saw this working once in my test runs and it was amazing how the IA worked nearly historically with the conquests, nearly to a year by year basis. If not and you still have three kingdoms instead of one, you see more struggle, even sometimes big Taifa victories (usually by Toledo and Badajoz).

The only thing with Solmyr's mod is that north african tribes have usually it difficult to intervene in the peninsula (only seen it seriously 1 in 8 times, which is still quite good comparred with the original setup). Perhaps the Al-muratibide (almoravids, I guess) and the Hammadida kingdom should have claims also over the Taifas?

Mad King James tech order setup sounds perfect, by the way.

 

[Sera]

I do not hold Crusader Kings on/off approach to technology in high regard. It is inaccurate and much too simplex. Below are some suggestions that would improve historical accuracy somewhat:

Agricultural technology: Most of Europe had plow technology. By the 5th century the heavy plow was in use in the Slavic lands. It was then introduced into Northern Italy (the Po valley) and by the 8th century it was used in the Rhineland. One of the early middle age improvements is even known as the German heavy wheeled plow. Likewise, chicken coops and pig pens were commonplace. Most places even had rudimental crop rotation.

http://www.ukans.edu/kansas/medieval/108/lectures/peasants.html

Schools/Universities: Europes first university was founded in Bolognia sometime between 1088 and 1119. Paris and Modena was the next to follow at around 1160 and 1175. Each demesne should have tech that comes with academic learning.

The muslims in Iberia founded several universities, the most reknown in Cordoba (took its place as one of the three cultural centers of the medieval world along with Constantinople and Baghdad), Granada and Seville. Each place should have elevated levels of academic related techs as above. They should have significantly more such than the "Chrisitan" universities though.

http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/middleages.html

Other than that I feel quite a few areas who early developed certain technologies are left out. In Iberia we have Toledo, reknown for their superior craftmanship of edged weapons as early as Hanibals days (should start with an extra edged weapon tech level).

Alhambra (Red Citadel) in Grenada was first begun in 1238, but Grenada could do with an extra tech level compared to others here even in the 1066 setup.

Incidentally, if the Andalusian Taifas gets to much on the defensive, they should become vassals/ally/grant demesne with/to the Al Moravid (based in Marocco). This could probably be achieved with an event script. In history, the fall of Toledo to Christians in 1085 propted the Al Moravid invitation/ invasion.

Non-Iberian tech: Cumans held up the Mongol advance on the Volga for a generation before finally being defeated in 1238. With the current tech setup for pagans and mongols that would be impossible. Cumans should start with a system that affords them with a large amount of light cavalry troops, have significant tech levels in typical steppe warfare areas and possibly have mounted archers (as per Mongols).

Same goes for Wales, could probably start with a level of bow tech (Welsh/English Longbow). Likewise Italy and Genoa should start with a level of crossbow tech (Genoese crossbowmen were an internationally recognized infantry elite).

 

[unmerged(2456)]

It was mentioned before there was no conern given to making any of the technoligical menaings accurate to given areas.

That is why church celibacy doesn't make married chaplain's illegal, which it should.

 

[I Killed Kenny]

can't a portuguese ruller call for a cruzade in Iberia?

 

[unmerged(6777)]

can't a portuguese ruller call for a cruzade in Iberia?

Certainly.

At present the Iberian crusades may be called by:

1. Papal controller. He's the most likely one to do so.

2. Any Catholic king. I have set a modifier to make it considerably more likely that an Iberian monarch would be the one to do so (but somewhat less likely than the papal controller).

3. Any independent Duke or Count. This is quite a bit less likely than a king doing so, but it's still possible. Also, Iberian independent Dukes or Counts are considerably more likely to do so than any other Duke or Count.


* * * * *

FYI:

I've been trading PMs and e-mails with Solmyr since the general consensus eariler in the thread seemed to be that his mod included a very good adjustment to the Iberian setup. He has agreed to undertake a revision of the current files (yesterday's version) to apply his experience and some of your other suggestions from this thread, and will send me an update once he's finished working on them. I'll then confirm at all seems well and then we'll try it out in a future beta patch and see what you all think about it and what sort of results you're seeing.

A big THANK YOU to Solmyr for agreeing to help with this part of the project.

 

[Nikolai]

Go Solmyr! His work has meant a good improvement of the Iberian setup earlier, I am confident he'll make some good work here too.

 

[The Yogi]

weapons and armour tech setup in 1066

I understand that having most level I techs given to most provinces defeats the purpose of having those techs in the game. But then the early techs should have been given other names. As things are, they're an intolerable eyesore.

Just to mention a few horrible examples, shortswords, shortbows, mail armour, leather armour (both soft and hard), javelin, long spear and many, many other techs had been known in all of Europe since antiquity. Even broadswords, a level II tech (!) would have been known to almost all of Europe since time immemorial (Roman auxiliaries carried a broadswordish weapon called Spatha in the times of Augustus). If we want to start most Christian provinces at tech 0, then most tech levels would have to be renamed.

If that, as I suspect, is not pratical, then at least the initial tech setup should reflect historic reality much better - most level I weapons and armour tech's should be known throughout the Christian world, with some regional variations - handaxes could be reserved for the "viking" sphere, scale mail (as it is already) for Byzantium etc. Only the most outback areas of eastern Europe should not know about such things as broadsword or mail armour.

Also, during this time, there would have been no significant difference in the level of weapons and armour technology between the muslim and christian world with the notable exception of bows (composite bows standard in the east since time immemorial, including the Byzantines) and crossbows (mostly unknown in the east but light crossbows should be known to most western christians). The muslim/byzantine advantage would at this time have been entirely a matter of tactical skill and economics/organization.

I just can't stand it when my Knights in 1066 do not even have shortswords. That's just absurd.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

I think it has been said before somewhere, but the tech names are mostly flavour, as "Shortsword" is better than "Sword level 1".