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I'll go with everyone else and support the "flavour" names for cultures.

I'm very curious about how the culture-switching will go. Honestly, it could be too easy to convert other province's cultures. I can't wait for more details.
 

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Advocatus Sancti Sepulcri
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Originally posted by Onslaught


I take it you support that between countries of the same religion, tension would be based on culture, while it would be based on religion when between countries of different faiths.

O.K. you said it better but that is what I meant. There are of course a few exceptions as in Iberia and Sicily where religious tolerance mitigated to some degree the conflict between religions. In these areas the cultural differences were blurry also. :)
 

St. Leo

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Do we stick to more accurate ans systematic definitions like "South-European, North-European, Central- European" or do we go for the flavour tags like "Mediterranean, Scandinavian and Germanic"?

I can very well imagine a "Catalan" enclave in say, part of Bretagne, but not a "Mediterrenean" culture in the same province.

This is why you should go with systematic descriptions such as "Southern", "Northern", and "Central".

If you had asked a similiar question about religions back when you were developing EU, people would have demanded "Anglicanism", "Zwingliism", "Lutheranism", and "Greek Orthodox" for no good reason.:)
 

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I too vote for flavor names. Suppose I am a german dynasty and come into possession of a part of Britain. Making the culture there "central European" would strike me funny. Making it "germanic" would seem much better. Of course we are only talking names here--the function isn't changing at all. But as the game puts in a mechanism for cultures to travel assigning cultural names by region may not be the best way to go.

I like the culture coexisting with a "subculture." So when a dynasty from one part of Scandinavia takes a province from someone around another part of Scandinavia there is a shorter term penalty. I don't think this should be labeled as "subculture" however. Perhaps it should be more reflective of a state of differing administrative techniques and laws.

It would also be interesting to have it so more linked cultures convert faster than more distant ones.

The idea of having your own culture dissolve after large conquests troubles me though. As you are providing the administrative framework and leadership of the country I am a little wary of this happening. Perhaps having no cultural change anywhere is a better model.

Overall though I would say I am very encouraged by this thread. I like the idea of cultural change.
 

kurtbrian

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I agree with everybody else that flavour culture is nicer.'


It ads depth to the game in my opinion
 

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Advocatus Sancti Sepulcri
Nov 24, 2000
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Originally posted by Dorsey4Heisman
[B....................
The idea of having your own culture dissolve after large conquests troubles me though. As you are providing the administrative framework and leadership of the country I am a little wary of this happening. Perhaps having no cultural change anywhere is a better model.

............ [/B]

Guess it would depend on the size of the lands you are taking over and the similarities of the two cultures. In EU II for example if Austria inherits Spain you would not really expect the Spanish culture to change to Austrian. But if Austria inherits Burgundy then you might expect a change.

In CK if the Franks set up a crusaders state in the levant would you really expect that the culture would change to French? The official language would change to Latin perhaps but the lifestyle would not automatically change and after a long period of time might even revert to what it was before the crusade.

Now if culture is only for calculating taxes and revolt risk then that is another thing. Cultures are tricky. They can merge and create an almost new culture.:)
 

Vandelay

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I like the idea of running the risk of having your culture subsumed if biting off more than you can chew - for how long did Southern Italy stay Norman after its conquest by the Normans (or Ilkhanid Mongols in Persia or the Danes in the Danelaw etc.)?

I don´t know if the current monarch/ dynasty would care though - they´d still rule but would no longer speak "langue d´oil" but a southern Italian dialect or they´d no longer speak Mongol but Persian so what difference would it make?

Also I think that there should be different game options for a dynast on how they want to assimilate a province of a foreign culture - through colonization, religious conversion or extermination or a combination thereof.

Cheers,
Vandelay
 

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Originally posted by Sonny


Guess it would depend on the size of the lands you are taking over and the similarities of the two cultures. In EU II for example if Austria inherits Spain you would not really expect the Spanish culture to change to Austrian. But if Austria inherits Burgundy then you might expect a change.

In CK if the Franks set up a crusaders state in the levant would you really expect that the culture would change to French? The official language would change to Latin perhaps but the lifestyle would not automatically change and after a long period of time might even revert to what it was before the crusade.

Now if culture is only for calculating taxes and revolt risk then that is another thing. Cultures are tricky. They can merge and create an almost new culture.:)

I would agree with what you wrote (and rereading my post it was very ambiguous on some points).

What disturbs me is the switching of cultures in the conquering party's lands. For example, as a small France I conquer Britain. I think it much much more likely Britain will convert to French culture than France to British. I would think this even if Britain has more provinces than I have in France.

What I am trying to say is if a small state conquers a large one the result shouldn't be a changing of cultures in the small state. I do however acknowledge a small state will not readily "convert" the culture of the large state. I would think the way to deal with a relatively small conquerer is to just have no cultural conversions--not reverse ones (as in conquered changing conquerer).

Can anyone think of a situation where that actually occurred? (Speaking of only reverse cultural change)
 

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ho Mixobarbaros
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The possibility of conquerors eventually loosing their culture and be assimilated should certainly be in the game, provided that the area conquered is of sufficient size.

Consider the Bulgars of 7th century, a Turkic tribe which had established a (K)Hanate on the Volga prior to their migration westwards. Although they successfuly subdued the Slavic peoples south of Danube (in present day Bulgaria & Macedonia) Bulgars eventually lost their Turkic language and culture, giving their name to an entire region but loosing their identity in due process.

If Crusader Kings can indeed accurately simulate such possibilities, it'd be one heck of a gaming experience!


Edit: Just read the previous post, you think this change from Bulgarian to Slavic culture counts as a valid example, D4H? :)
 
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Originally posted by Dorsey4Heisman


I would agree with what you wrote (and rereading my post it was very ambiguous on some points).

What disturbs me is the switching of cultures in the conquering party's lands. For example, as a small France I conquer Britain. I think it much much more likely Britain will convert to French culture than France to British. I would think this even if Britain has more provinces than I have in France.

What I am trying to say is if a small state conquers a large one the result shouldn't be a changing of cultures in the small state. I do however acknowledge a small state will not readily "convert" the culture of the large state. I would think the way to deal with a relatively small conquerer is to just have no cultural conversions--not reverse ones (as in conquered changing conquerer).

Can anyone think of a situation where that actually occurred? (Speaking of only reverse cultural change)
I believe Sergiei meant two cases, either it's migration into more populated area (Bulgars, Crusaders, Awars, etc) when since you only hold new provinces, they don't change to your "state culture" but your "sc" changes instead. Or, in case you conquer something bigger (Manchu China), your "state culture " changes to which is in the newly conquered territory (Han), while you might or might not retain your old culture (Manchu). Certainly, old Manchu provinces remain Manchu. At least for now ;)
 

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I agree with the flavor idea, and the cultures amassing into each other. I think maybe the the cultures would become more mixed,
Example in America but still a good one:
The Spanish conquered Mexico but the two cultures intermixed to create Mestizo culture. Maybe the conquers home provences stay the old culture, but some of the new provences have mixed. I also like the sub culture idea, would new nobles help make the conquered people change their minds?
 

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[Something Hilarious]
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I had to rush off to school early...so I'll better state what I thought.



I think there should be a "Parent Culture" that covers large areas, like Germanic or Scandinavian.

Under these, would be a "Secondary Culture" or subculture. This would be specific to the area. Like Danish or Swedish. While they'd be somewhat similar to, and have a bit more of a bond with, the parent culture...they'd still be different.

So this way, whatever penalty or bonus you'd get, would be halved(or atleast, not 100% of the normal bonus/penalty)...if you as a Dane conquered a Swedish provence.

All countries would have a name for their sub-culture. Like Anglo for english, which could be: Anglo-Scandinavian or Anglo-Germanic.

Put the people would, perhaps, never be fully Anglo-Saxon.



Also, distance should affect how fast assimilation is. If you're France and you conquer part of the Holy Roman Empire, it would be faster than if you conquered Hungry or something. Also, religion should affect it. Catholics could assimilate fellow Catholics quicker than Orthodox or Muslims.

I also agree with the idea that there should be a % for each religion. And that could affect assimilation too...if 34% of a provs population are Islamic, then it should take a bit longer for them to become Norman(or whatever) cuz they're not even going along with your (Catholic) religion!

The Monarch could also have a policy to go along with this. Like an agressive policy of implementing your culture. Building things that represent your culture and stuff like that throughout the provence. But could cause the populace to dislike you even more and make it even longer before they're assimilated.

But, I don't quite know about that last one...
 

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Thanks for the feedback, gentlemen. Flavour names, you say... Well, we had both opinions here and now we tend to agree with your arguments =). The best of those, honestly, being that since cultures change geographically, it would be strange to have geo-based names mismatching actual geo locations (i.e. Southern culture in Northern regions).

Re: sub-cultures, these are currently a frozen feature, it would be too hard to balance and we can end up with a balance that devaluates them at all. With all the major gameplay factors, the possible effects of subculture would be a shadow that serves little purpose in most of game situations.

I am opening now a new thread to discuss the *names* of the cultures, while the mechanics we'll leave until Borealis stops by.
 

Damocles

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Sergei,

It is difficult to accurately model one culture's increasing influence over another. Even though the latins dominated Sicily, it took hundreds of years for the Arabic and Greek elements to fade away...And to a respectable extent, much of that remained for a very long time past the end date of CK.

At the start of CK, "Arabic" culture more or less dominated most of Sicily with a dominant Greek minority in the east. When the Normans conquered it, they were never a true ruling caste as in Apulia where Normans lorded it over the Greeks and Lombards and formed their own feudal fief systems.

The Sicillian rulers governed more like Islamic potentates then Latin feudal kings. I.E, the focus of the economy remained on the cities rather then on feudal estates which the Norman ruling family never allowed to form. In fact, properly treated, the sizable Arabic and Greek elements of Sicily was a rockbed of stability when compared to Norman Apulia which was constantly rebelling.

Yes, Apulia was more or less culturally dominated but it was far more disruptive and far less productive then the tame provinces in Sicily that enabled it to reach a height of wealth almost unparelled in the Med.

It is import to discern which cultures and nations depended on the strength of the cities and civilian populations and those who depended on the feudal system.

For example, the Italian city-states, Sicily, and to some extent Byzantium (though, the Byzantine military system went through several degradations until it relied almost entirely on mercenaries) the armies were formed from the cities. Consequently, much larger civilian armies were able to be raised. The Sicilians which were basically an island of large populated cities were able to launch an 80,000 man, 400 ship invasion fleet against Byzantium.

England, France, Hungary, the Holy Roman Empire (etc), had to rely on the feudal system in which it would call as many of its fighting class to form an army at any one time. The Holy Roman Empire under the German Emperors were able to amass enormous armies and they were often composed of dedicated, well armoured men providing their own mounts (In contrast to the Sicilians, Italians and Greeks who always used a majority of infantry). These armies were brittle however and only a very strong ruler could keep them in the field even for an entire season. Barbarossa in all his glory and personal magnetism was very hard put to keep an army in the field for longer then six months at a time. The French as well were capable of raising enormous armies, but only for a very short while. They often relied on emotional impetus more then anything else.

England was one of the first "Western" nations to turn towards a civilian army doing away with the feudalistic system or the "snowball" fashion of calling the entire caste to arms and getting it rolling in any one direction.

However, Italian city-states, the Greeks, the Sicilians, etc, and other nations who drew upon the strength of the cities to form their armies could often suffer crushing, debilitating defeats, and still be able to put more manpower on the field.

For the Western nations who were largely feudal based, with one particular mounted class doing the bulk of the fighting, a single crushing defeat could incapacitate their ability to wage effective war for a generation or more!

I also hope that Italy is distinctly represted as a wholly different culture then either their Gallic or Germanic cousins.

Sicily will be difficult to model correctly, yet I hope that culture does not determine tax profit. Having a different culture can even improve stability as a whole. Remember, that it was the Sicilian ruler's ability to draw upon sizable Arabic (they called them 'saracen') numbers as troops that ennabled them to wage successful war against the Papacy even when excommunicated.

Count Roger actively discouraged any attempt to convert his Greek or Arabic subjects, simply because, it gave his realm added stability without it being subverted by the Catholic church.
 

Murmurandus

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I'm also in favour for the flavour...:D

Anyway, I'm not an historical nitpicker and I think the flavour names will appeal me and other non-scientists more...

However I realize that flavour cultures will cause some severe discussions (like 'OMG but that provinces can impossible be Germanic...'), but we must realize that it is almost impossible to give every province the correct culture (like the Balkans).
 
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What if cultures were also slightly divided between countries, such as "Danish" Scandinavian and "Swedish" Scandinavian?

Then there would have to be a Norwegian culture too, making three cultures just for Scandinavia. No, the way I see it, there should be only one Scandinavian culture, creating the possibility of uniting Scandinavia under one culture.
 

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T'lan Imass Bonecaster
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King Yngvar said:
Then there would have to be a Norwegian culture too, making three cultures just for Scandinavia. No, the way I see it, there should be only one Scandinavian culture, creating the possibility of uniting Scandinavia under one culture.

Ahh, there's nothing like replying to an 18 month old post in the morning. :D