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Grandpa Maur
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Originally posted by tuna


You're making a valid suggestion DM, yet I couldn't help but notice that you're only describing the Altaic culture as "nomadic" while keeping the other flavor names. Just looked a little odd to me :) (yes I strongly support Altaic or Turkic at this point, rather than nomadic)
Well, that's because i can't come up with better names for other cultures, not because i prefer this type of name to nomadic.

Calling it Altaic or Turkic, which, afaik, are names for language families and/or ethnicities will only confuse matters-Altaic language group afaik have both steppe nomads and forest people, which belongs to two distinct cultures according to the way CK defines it.'

About religions, i suppose catholic, orthodox, pagan and muslim. Or have i omitted anything?
 

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This comes from Borealis:

"
Culture is less meaningful than Religion indeed (difference in Religion means considerable loss in net tax, some impact on manpower too). But Teutonic Ruler won't get so harsh penalties in tax or in manpower in newly vassalised Mediterranean or Roman province. Culture difference is vital for loyalties - remember why Laungedoc was leaning towads Spanish neighbours? So having your Culture spread through the world is a must for those who want to build a steady empire with loyal Dukes. But, wait, who doesn't want that? :)

Anyway, if anybody here has other ideas on how Culture can affect gameplay factors, please say so. We haven't sealed the formulaes yet :).

"
 

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Originally posted by sergei
About the igloos... We scrapped them when we did more research into what samoeds actually used, and made those thingies... Sorry for misleading. These are skin-based, kind of vigvamish... But couldn't put a proper English name on that. Anybody volunteers to help? :D

I think the Swedish word for them is "kåta" (as in "lappkåta"). I don't know if there is an English word for them though... I'll go check some encyclopedias, hopefully before the Swedes here think of the other word with that spelling and get all distracted by impure (but interesting) thoughts...
 

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Tents?:D

Originally posted by sergei
This comes from Borealis:

"
Culture is less meaningful than Religion indeed (difference in Religion means considerable loss in net tax, some impact on manpower too). But Teutonic Ruler won't get so harsh penalties in tax or in manpower in newly vassalised Mediterranean or Roman province. Culture difference is vital for loyalties - remember why Laungedoc was leaning towads Spanish neighbours? So having your Culture spread through the world is a must for those who want to build a steady empire with loyal Dukes. But, wait, who doesn't want that? :)

Anyway, if anybody here has other ideas on how Culture can affect gameplay factors, please say so. We haven't sealed the formulaes yet :).
"
Hmmm, i'm not sure about religion and tax... this famous non-muslim head tax in Islamic countries... oh well.

I suppose manpower isn't in? So this factor is irrelevant.

Well, i suppose that same culture would mean greater identification with dynasty. Both common folk and nobilility. So, for example, sometimes regiments raised in non-cultured provinces, lead by your dynasty member would have lower loyalty. Noble of other culture would more often think of rebelling against your family. Burghers would demand more privileges.

They would want more independence, decentralization basically. When seeing opportunity, would be troublesome.

EDIT/ Religion having impact on manpower factor? I though military system in CK is based on provincial raised regiments, how does manpower work with this?
 

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And the proper name for the Sami homes, taken straight from a wordlist, is... *drumroll*







[Lapp] cot
 

Nikolai II

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Originally posted by Onslaught
[Lapp] cot

Or: tent.

My 'Soviet Union in Maps' puts Altaic as main group for Finno-Ugrian and Turko-Tatar.

Interesting might be that Romania is 'Greco-Latin'. Depending on size of Byzantiums influence I would support 'Romanoi'

I still like 'Franks' a lot more than 'Germanic' though.


About the Igloos I should have spotted it earlier, sice noone lives in a Igloo, only Inuits use(d) them as hunting lodges of sorts. They still live on as emergency shelter or funny tents for extreme sporters though.


Could culture make it harder for regiments to cooperate? Since they will be more likely to want to upstage eachothers, see the other fail, or just make more mistakes in cooperation, making it harder to handle a large force if it's participants come from differently cultured provinces.
 

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I agree with Nikolaï II. The culture should rather influence military coordination. Or even the loyalty or efficiency of the nobles. For example, the nobles with a culture different from that of the King could either be less efficient, or even not very loyal.

A lower effiency could be the result of the nobles misunderstanding royal decrees, or maybe not enforcing them because they considered themselves more civilised than the King and thus more able to find adequate solutions to given issues. In France the lords of the Langue d'Oc despised their northern counterparts as barbarians.

Maybe could different culture during sieges: if a lord is ruled by a King from another culture, he could be tempted to easily surrender or open the gates of his castle should the invader be of the same culture. This happened a lot during the HYW in Aquitaine on the French/English border.

EDIT> I don't think chosing Frank over Geermanic would de a good idea, for England neever was settled or ruled by the Franks. However, Franks would be the best idea should it apply only to Western Germany, the Netherlands and France. After all Charlemagne ("Karl der Gross" in German) was Rex Francorum, King of the Franks.
 

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Originally posted by Eochaid
I agree with Nikolaï II. The culture should rather influence military coordination. Or even the loyalty or efficiency of the nobles. For example, the nobles with a culture different from that of the King could either be less efficient, or even not very loyal.
This is already confirmed by Sergei, in this thread ;)
 

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My 'Soviet Union in Maps' puts Altaic as main group for Finno-Ugrian and Turko-Tatar.

This statement is plain wrong, and would only be supported by very few in the linguistic field.

Oh and I think that east slavic and west slavic should be just slavic, and it should instad be divided between north and south slavic, for these two groups were geographically seperated. We must remember that the slavs still ahd a common language when the game begins, and splitting them into and east and west groups doesnt make sense.
 

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Originally posted by Zeus123

We must remember that the slavs still ahd a common language when the game begins, and splitting them into and east and west groups doesnt make sense.
It is confirmed from Snowball that language is not the decider here. Have you read sergei's posts today?
 
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Originally posted by Eochaid
I just read what you wrote, and not only is it OT, but also a very narrow-minded vision. You say that there is no such thing as a Canadian or American culture, but that is not true.

American culture is a mix of several pre-existing cultures (English of course, but also French, Spanish, Native and African) facing the Frontier phenomenon and an isolated situation in the eightieenth and nineteenth centuries.

Just as Russian culture is a mix of several pre-existing cultures such as low-slavonic, Kievian, Norsc and Mongol. The distinct Russian culture appeared during the fourteenth and fifteenth century, when the whole region was under the rule of the Golden Horde.

The only difference between the two cultures is that Russian culture is older than the American or Canadian ones. But then Russian culture is younger than the Greek culture or the French culture.

If you want to discuss this further, I will pleased to do so, but please PM me instead of posting OT remarks on this Thread. :)

Sergueï, sorry for interrupting this thread by this post. I'll come back to the subject in my next post :p


Well, excuse me if i offended thee, but my point is that you didn't get it - the very first line of yours shows that you're trying to interpret my words in a dfferent way - LET US NOT substitute the notions i used! We spoke about nations - not cultures - the whole topic was about nations not cultures!
Thus i see no reason for calling it an OT - OT was started by our Ukrainian-Canadian friend BarristerBoy who managed to offend the bigger part of Snowball forum - and Russian EU Community by using rude and improper means of stating his point of view.


As YOU can see i was just trying to contradict to him in the respect of terms - we cannot allege there were Ukrainian, Belorussian or other nations during that span of time! (this is one point)
Secondly, as ive understood from Sergei's posts - they do not like the idea of calling it RUS or Ros (the way Greeks called all tribes living in that region since 7th century). The alternative i have supported.
Thirdly, Russian as i said and Sergei admitted is the most generic term unless we want to create a chaos making every small tribe exist separately.
The fourth thing is that i was again talking about NOT american culture or Canadian but about national content of the countries - i suspect that it's quite a mixture, isn't it? And if we speak about US this is no secret that the dominant nations of those English, Irish, Scottish emmigrants are diminishing in number. And the Afro-American and Spanish population starts to prevail - the wave of emmigration is so all-embracing that i hardly can believe that those new Americans are fully integrated into the society and "nation" - that's impossible, therefore it serves not enriching the ethnos but blowing it out from within.
And culture, well, let it be! Nobody objects to!
As regards your words about Russian culture - well you're right at least in respect of incorporation of numerous elements from other nations - but again you have a certain misunderstanding in terms due to a linguistic knot of English whichhas no corresponding words to what i really meant, thus it might have seemed a bit awkward.
Russian as a nation is one thing, but since 15th-16th century - Russian as a nation (even not becoming a separate nation started to form just another concept of Russia - not RUS) RUS - is a country of ethnic Slavs, Russia is a home not only for Russians but other numerous nations - the 15-16th centuries - are the dates for Tartar incorporation into Russia as well as a multitude of Samoyed peoples.

The thing is that you might have not got the idea i meant.

Sincerely.
 

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Also, if you want to change anything about social structure in the province (i don't know about game mechanics, if anything like that exists), it should be much harder in culturally alien provinces.

Same as conversion, you are treated as alien, with distrust. Not really welcomed to change "our" ways...
 

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Originally posted by DarthMaur
Calling it Altaic or Turkic, which, afaik, are names for language families and/or ethnicities will only confuse matters-Altaic language group afaik have both steppe nomads and forest people, which belongs to two distinct cultures according to the way CK defines it.'

Actually you're right, we are defining the culture according to its language, ethnicity -as well as- the dominant lifestyle here. By 1066, there were forest dwelling, nomadic as well as urbanized Turkic people throughout Central Asia and the Middle East.

However, calling this mostly Turkic (and almost completely Altaic) population's culture "nomadic" is as absurd as calling all "Latin/Romance" peoples of the Mediterrenean "sedenteries."
How else would you portray the urban folk of Bukhara or Tashkand? They weren't Saracens but Turkic. Or consider a major Seljuk invasion of Asia Minor. Surely they will settle and populate urban centers eventually (as was in history) they are no more nomadic, but rather sedentary people with a "Turkic" culture---calling them nomadic would be a paradox when applied to urban dwellers! :)
 

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Originally posted by tuna


However, calling this mostly Turkic (and almost completely Altaic) population's culture "nomadic" is as absurd as calling all "Latin/Romance" peoples of the Mediterrenean "sedenteries."
How else would you portray the urban folk of Bukhara or Tashkand?

Wouldn't the city dwellers of Transoxania have been mainly Sogdian and Tadjik in 1066? Since the Turks had just begun to enter the area a few decades previously, they shouldn't have made up that much of the urban propulation yet...
 

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Originally posted by tuna


Actually you're right, we are defining the culture according to its language, ethnicity -as well as- the dominant lifestyle here. By 1066, there were forest dwelling, nomadic as well as urbanized Turkic people throughout Central Asia and the Middle East.

However, calling this mostly Turkic (and almost completely Altaic) population's culture "nomadic" is as absurd as calling all "Latin/Romance" peoples of the Mediterrenean "sedenteries."
How else would you portray the urban folk of Bukhara or Tashkand? They weren't Saracens but Turkic. Or consider a major Seljuk invasion of Asia Minor. Surely they will settle and populate urban centers eventually (as was in history) they are no more nomadic, but rather sedentary people with a "Turkic" culture---calling them nomadic would be a paradox when applied to urban dwellers! :)
Well, your arguments would be perfectly valid, if not two thigs. First, Tashkent and Bukhara (or other CA cities) are outside CK map. Second, i don't know when Turks arrived in Persia/Asia minor. If they already abandoned their nomadic ways, there is no need to include them in group 9, but rather into 6 or 7. If there are still nomadic, it would be a problem, since they wouldn't retain their nomadic culture for long (same problem with Hungarians). But i suppose events could handle this change, so in the end we wouldn't have settled Turks in group 9.

And i think while both ethnicity and language corellate with culture, they are by no means independent variables.
 

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The main point is- you still think of culture as something close to ethnicity/language, thus making assumption that populations having similar language/ethnicity will belong to the same culture. But my impression is that it's not the case-i actually think we could have Saracen culture in the coasts of North Africa, and Nomadic, supposedly altaic in the interior...(even though they weren't technically of the same ethnicity, but Arab/Berber. Let's just assume they were)
 

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It is confirmed from Snowball that language is not the decider here. Have you read sergei's posts today?

I totally understand that language is not the decider, but it is an indicacation of culture, since a comon language usually means a common culture. And for that reason, I firmly believe that the cultures of the south slavs and northen slavs were more different than those of the east and west slavs, due to geographical isolation that approched upwards of 300 years at the time of the game's start.
 

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I might be too late to chime in here, but I think either Ugric or Finno-Ugric is the obvious choice for the 'forest pagan' peoples.

-Caliga