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Levantine is kinda like Russian to BB, I think they should chose a less political name, maybe Byzantine? Hellanian? or what ever the Culture of the Byzantine Empire, Georgia, Armenia, and Byzantine Cyrimea was called.
while agreeing with jaron that we shouldnt make too much of it, i say one more time that 'romaioi' (greek romans, or eastern christians apart from slav) is the best choice since:
a) its what they were really called by themselves
b) it isnt offensive to anyone, for example the georgians werent romaioi, but they were always in the friendliest relations with the romaioi, and helped create the empire of trebizond after 1204
c) the word is distinct enough from the latin 'roman' so no missunderstanding can be made
by the way the byzantine empire was called 'romaion basileia' and also 'romania' (of course in greek letters the 'o' in ro is an omega)
a) its what they were really called by themselves
b) it isnt offensive to anyone, for example the georgians werent romaioi, but they were always in the friendliest relations with the romaioi, and helped create the empire of trebizond after 1204
c) the word is distinct enough from the latin 'roman' so no missunderstanding can be made
by the way the byzantine empire was called 'romaion basileia' and also 'romania' (of course in greek letters the 'o' in ro is an omega)
Heh, if "Levantine" is causing this much of a problem, then we can just use the other term I suggested in my original post where I first mentioned Levantine, "East Mediterranean". Surely that is a decent descriptive term, with no negative connotations at all?
but as you know at the time east mediterrenian is largly arab, so it would be even more vague. why dont you accept 'romaioi' Demetrie?
As mentioned in a post at the top of this page, the term (wahtever it may end up as being), will also cover Syriac and Coptic Christians, who did live around the Eastern Mediterranean, and hadn't been "Roman" or "Byzantine" for centuries.
yes, but it is better not to sacrifice the vast majority of the population for the minorities just because you want to differentiate them from the arab ruling classes in those areas. i just argue that by not using romaioi you are creating more problems that those you solve, not that romaioi covers everything. in ck the romaion basileia starts as one of the clear leading powers in europe so one could even argue that it has to be protected from any choise taken due to the limitations of the game's engine. apart from that though isnt it less problematic to depict the coptic and syrian christians through events (in the manner of provinces changing culture upon liberation or variations of such events etc) than deciding to use a made up name for the people of the romaion basileia?
I'm opposed to "Romaioi" simply because, well, it isn't a word in the english language. And secondarly because it covers cultures that are long removed from, or never were a part of, the Eastern Roman Empire.
If Levantine is offensive then don't use it, but how is it offensive? Go back and check out my link to dictionary.com's definition of the word. All it says there is "of the Eastern mediteranean". Where's the offensive part? All I have is iwannhs and Hardu saying that it is offensive, but I can't see any explanation why.
If Levantine is offensive then don't use it, but how is it offensive? Go back and check out my link to dictionary.com's definition of the word. All it says there is "of the Eastern mediteranean". Where's the offensive part? All I have is iwannhs and Hardu saying that it is offensive, but I can't see any explanation why.
If we use Romaioi, will we use Deutsche and other names in their proper language?
Either have it all in one language (preferably English
) or go all local. No mixing.
Either have it all in one language (preferably English
) or go all local. No mixing.
I couldn’t find Levantine as a derogatory term at dictionary.com either, but under Levant the definition is “ To leave hurriedly or in secret to avoid unpaid debts”
to "welsh" on a debt in other words... according to webster's, that "levant" is derived from another word from the one that gives the "levant" or "levantine" - so they're just homographs, nothing more.
i don't know to what hardu refers, but you won't find iwannhs' definition in an english based dictionary, as he was referring to the word's connotation in greek.
steph
I find Levantine offense to Georgians, Armenians, Crimeans and people of the Balkans in the Byzantine Empire, because these people weren't Levantine they where Calcusian, Black Sea people, and Slavic - Byzantine. I do understand that Levantine would apply best with Syria and the Levant (Holy Land) but it wouldn't work with the other fringe ares of the Byzantine Empire, it would be like calling Ukrainains sp? Russians, which as BB pointed out they certanly are not. Whats wrong with Byzantine? Its a English word, many people know where it is, and it means a mix of roman and greek cultures, which the entire empire and fringe states where.
historycaesar they should use the word byzantine and your explanation in the desc to explain why it was used
Actually, Byzantine for south Slavs is like Russian for Ukrainians, not LevantineOriginally posted by iwannhs
historycaesar they should use the word byzantine and your explanation in the desc to explain why it was used
Levantine
I forgot to add that it may be a rather dated derogatory term. But when there were "levantines" around, prior to WWII, the term had exactly the same perjorative connotation for an English gentleman as "wog" or "dago" or "nigger".
A Levantine was invariably a non-muslim, non-Jewish tradesman, shop- or innkeeper of undefinable nationality, swarthy complexion and questionable integrity in pecuinary matters that claimed to be a British subect; found in all cities of the Levant.
As one biography of the first class to graduate from the British Staff College at Camberwell put it on the one who did not make it to general officer rank: "Married a Levantine and last heard of running a brothel in Smyrna".
I forgot to add that it may be a rather dated derogatory term. But when there were "levantines" around, prior to WWII, the term had exactly the same perjorative connotation for an English gentleman as "wog" or "dago" or "nigger".
A Levantine was invariably a non-muslim, non-Jewish tradesman, shop- or innkeeper of undefinable nationality, swarthy complexion and questionable integrity in pecuinary matters that claimed to be a British subect; found in all cities of the Levant.
As one biography of the first class to graduate from the British Staff College at Camberwell put it on the one who did not make it to general officer rank: "Married a Levantine and last heard of running a brothel in Smyrna".
Is anyone surprised? Everyone is well aware that Hungarians aren´t Slavs, but I guess noone wants to make a culture group just for the Hungarians when we have 11 groups to play with. Well, except for the Hungarians...
Looking back at all this culture debate Paradox should have gone for simply Feudal, Tribal and Urban cultures.
Cheers,
Vandelay
Originally posted by DarthMaur
Wow!Cavalry arrived at last
Though really late - I expected them much earlier and in greater numbers!
Why not Central European for the West Slavs and Hungarians? Neutral enough, for all involved, though some may expect the Germans to be included in a group with such a name. Yeah, it's bland, but bland doesn't start flame wars...