Psionics for Fanatic Materialists is very possible

[Monkbel]

[This is on 1.4.1]
I saw a very common viewpoint on forums that psionics tech is just for spiritualist empires.

I am playing for fanatic materialist empire. And today one of my scientists, when upping a level, randomly acquired Psionics expertise.
After that, I put him in charge of Society tech when research was close to finish, and had to do ~6 reload tries - and I got "Psionic Theory" tech.

It's not a surefire way of course, but at least it's not limited to some crazy paranoid/maniacal anomalies

 

[MechaThumper]

Been like that since launch day. It's just random to get and psionics is a fairly rare expertise.

 

[General Retreat]

At the end of the day, it's pretty much inevitable that you'll see almost every tech with every empire eventually. It's just a matter of how far down the road the weightings kick it, and whether it's actually useful at that point.

 

[Zulfurlubak]

I might be unluckiest person in the world but in my 3 latest walkthroughs when I was experimenting with various builds including Materialism and Fanatic Materialism I haven't seen a single scientist with Psionics trait. Are there any anomalies or events around that could increase your chance to get one?

 

[Dr. B]

Got the same thing as Materialist in 1.4.0 I think, scientist randomly gained psionics on levelup, I put him in charge of society, and got the research option fairly quick. This was also on Ironman.

But quite rare, as it should be. Also, you want to use "fast learner" scientists, and best with the Materialist republic variant, to maximize levelups.

 

[krios41]

Psionics aren't even that good imo.
I only realy use teh psionic Batle computer for corvettes and destroyers, for teh rest the sentient computer is better.

THe psi-drive or the drive that the Fallen empires use?
Psi-drive again falls short (let alone that it cna cause the unbidden to come)

Gene warriors versos Psionic?
Gene again win.

 

[DarkFenX]

Last time i checked, materialist can never get psi tech an easy way:

leader_trait_expertise_psionics = {
   ...
   prerequisites = { tech_psionic_theory }
   ...
}

tech_psionic_theory = {
   ...
       modifier = {
           factor = 0
           AND = {
               OR = {
                   has_ethic = "ethic_materialist"
                   has_ethic = "ethic_fanatic_materialist"
               }
               NOT = {
                   research_leader = {
                       area = society
                       has_trait = "leader_trait_expertise_psionics"
                   }
               }
           }
       }
   ...
}

And the only way to get psionics on your own - is blackhole + water planet anomalies (rainbow in the dark makes your scientist paranoid, drops in the ocean's paranoid choices make paranoid scientists maniacal + psionic experts).

And not every psi tech can be reverse-engineered - e.g. everything related to ground troops cannot.

 

[MechaThumper]

And not every psi tech can be reverse-engineered - e.g. everything related to ground troops cannot.

You only need psionic expertise for the initial psionic technology. For the others spiritualists get bonuses for them to appear, otherwise they show up as often as for any other ethos.

THe psi-drive or the drive that the Fallen empires use?
Psi-drive again falls short (let alone that it cna cause the unbidden to come)

Gene warriors versos Psionic?
Gene again win.

Psi-drive is better than the normal jump drive. It has 50% more range and is otherwise identical.

Psionics are closer to the same ground troop tier as xenomorphs, so that's an unfair comparison, as Gene warriors are meant to be the best troop type. In comparison to xenomorphs they do slightly poorer 1v1 to everything but they will beat a xenomorph army. However they cost far more, closer to the cost of a gene warrior. They are easier to acquire than genewarriors though.

 

[DarkFenX]

You only need psionic expertise for the initial psionic technology. For the others spiritualists get bonuses for them to appear, otherwise they show up as often as for any other ethos.

You're right, materialists absolutely need psi expertise to get base technology, but expertise does not randomly appear until you have that base technology. And you cannot reverse-engineer it, because the only item granted by base technology is psi-warrior troop attachment, thus there's at least one technology materialists cannot get via research or warfare - psionic theory.

The only way to get it (at least out of those I'm aware of) is anomalies I've mentioned in my last post.

 

[Aed]

You're right, materialists absolutely need psi expertise to get base technology, but expertise does not randomly appear until you have that base technology. And you cannot reverse-engineer it, because the only item granted by base technology is psi-warrior troop attachment, thus there's at least one technology materialists cannot get via research or warfare - psionic theory.

The only way to get it (at least out of those I'm aware of) is anomalies I've mentioned in my last post.

Like people have said earlier, there is a random chance for scientists to gain the psionics trait from levelling up. I got it in a materialist/individualist/pacifist game not too long ago.

As far as i know its only that or the anomalies that allow materialists access to that tech branch, outside of warfare.

 

[Torakka]

Last time i checked, materialist can never get psi tech an easy way:

leader_trait_expertise_psionics = {
   ...
   prerequisites = { tech_psionic_theory }
   ...
}

Unless I am mistaken, that only means that it is impossible to get scientists with pre-generated Psionic trait without Psionic Theory. The event that handles giving new traits on level up has no such restriction.

 

[DarkFenX]

If this is possible, i might be just unlucky. I've never got a psi expert from leveling up as materialist (even as quick learner + direct democracy).

Also, i couldn't find code which is executed when leader levels up. I assumed it just uses normal list of leader traits with all the prerequisites.

 

[Torakka]

Hmm... The event handling giving new traits is "leader.20" in Stellaris\events\leader_events_1.txt and I remembered it just having a random list of all traits or something like that. However, currently it uses "add_random_leader_trait = yes" command that might (or might not) actually care about those prerequisites set in \common\traits\00_scientist_traits.txt.
The last time that I personally can confirm for certain getting Psionic trait as Materialistic empire on scientist level up is before 1.1 patch, so it might very well have changed since then.

 

[DarkFenX]

add_random_leader_trait is defined in common/scripted_effects/00_scripted_effects.txt, and according to it - scientist indeed can get psionics trait at level-up, ignoring prerequisites (but only if it's not researching any area of technology).

What do "factor" values in leader.20 event define? Multiply weight of 10 by 1.5 or 5, depending on level?

           if = {
               limit = {
                   leader_class = scientist
                   num_traits < 3
                   NOT = {
                       has_leader_flag = has_gained_level_trait
                       is_researching_area = society
                       is_researching_area = engineering
                       is_researching_area = physics
                   }
               }
               random_list = {
                   90 = { }
                   10 = {
                       modifier = {
                           factor = 1.5
                           OR = {
                               has_level = 3
                               has_level = 4
                           }
                       }
                       modifier = {
                           factor = 5
                           has_level = 5
                       }
                       add_random_leader_trait = yes
                       set_leader_flag = has_gained_level_trait
                   }
               }
           }

 

[The Founder]

add_random_leader_trait is defined in common/scripted_effects/00_scripted_effects.txt, and according to it - scientist indeed can get psionics trait at level-up, ignoring prerequisites (but only if it's not researching any area of technology).

What do "factor" values in leader.20 event define? Multiply weight of 10 by 1.5 or 5, depending on level?

           if = {
               limit = {
                   leader_class = scientist
                   num_traits < 3
                   NOT = {
                       has_leader_flag = has_gained_level_trait
                       is_researching_area = society
                       is_researching_area = engineering
                       is_researching_area = physics
                   }
               }
               random_list = {
                   90 = { }
                   10 = {
                       modifier = {
                           factor = 1.5
                           OR = {
                               has_level = 3
                               has_level = 4
                           }
                       }
                       modifier = {
                           factor = 5
                           has_level = 5
                       }
                       add_random_leader_trait = yes
                       set_leader_flag = has_gained_level_trait
                   }
               }
           }

The weighting is a wierd thing and getting the effective percentage out of them can be hard.
At base there is a 90:10 chance not to get any trait. Wich would be 10% for a trait (per levelup while not doing reserach)
It becomes 90:15 for level 3 and 4. Wich is 15/105 or about 14.3%
And 90:50 on Level 5. 50/140 or about 37.1%

Also note that there is a lockout for getting a trait this way. You can only get one this way.

Edit
In effect that means a Leader going from Level 1 to 5 while not leading Science would do the following rolls:
2: 10%
3: 14.3%
4: 14.3%
5: 37.1%

Another way to look at it, the chance to not get a trait on any specific levelup is:
2: 90%
3: 85.7%
4: 85.7%
5: 62.9%

Multiply it all, and the guy going from 1 through 5 has about 41% chance to not get any trait from leveling up. Or 59% chance to get a trait.
Leaders going from 2 through 5 (talented or the various buffs) has a chance of about 46.2% to not get a trait.
3-5: 53.4%
4-5: 62.9%

 

[DarkFenX]

Chance to get any trait this way: 1−(1−(10÷(10+90)))×(1−(15÷(15+90)))^2×(1−(50÷(50+90))) = 0.574927114
Chance to get psionics: 0.574927114 / 26 = 0.022112581 (26 traits available via lvlups, all weights are equal)

So, chance is 2.2% per scientist whom you level up from lvl 1 to 5 and who's not working on research.

 

[Alkaid98]

I've gotten a Psionic trait on a scientist from leveling up a couple times as Fanatic Materialist, but unfortunately they always came too early on for me to be far enough along to roll a psionic tech before they died. (Without any leader lifespan traits/bonuses)
Currently, I just wait and get my psi jump drives reliably from fighting a fallen empire and scanning the debris. Do they all get psi jump drives now? I used to think it was just the spiritualist fallen empires, but I've seen it come from militaristic isolationists as well. If they do all have them, at least that makes psi jump drives a consistently accessible for a materialist, provided you're willing and able to fight an FE at some point.

 

[The Founder]

I've gotten a Psionic trait on a scientist from leveling up a couple times as Fanatic Materialist, but unfortunately they always came too early on for me to be far enough along to roll a psionic tech before they died. (Without any leader lifespan traits/bonuses)

Many people say the Leader Lifespan & Skill Species traits are rather useless. This and a recently playthrough proove it wrong.

Last I checked you only need the Psionic guy to get the first psi tech. All the other ones are not locked by Ethos/Traits. And once you got that tech, you may even get new leaders with Psionic expertise.

Currently, I just wait and get my psi jump drives reliably from fighting a fallen empire and scanning the debris. Do they all get psi jump drives now? I used to think it was just the spiritualist fallen empires, but I've seen it come from militaristic isolationists as well. If they do all have them, at least that makes psi jump drives a consistently accessible for a materialist, provided you're willing and able to fight an FE at some point.

According to the ship design files, only the Spiritualist has Psi Jump Drives.
However the Awakened Empires operate under different rules, AI type and possibly designs. So they might always get Psi jump drive.

 

[Alkaid98]

Many people say the Leader Lifespan & Skill Species traits are rather useless. This and a recently playthrough proove it wrong.

Last I checked you only need the Psionic guy to get the first psi tech. All the other ones are not locked by Ethos/Traits. And once you got that tech, you may even get new leaders with Psionic expertise.

Oh I understand, I was just saying the few times I've lucked out and got one it was early in the game, and the leaders never had any lifespan bonuses nor was I using the traits for that, so unfortunately my scientists ended up dying before I could draw a psionic tech with them. Figures now that I've started running the first lifespan trait on my main race, I haven't gotten the Psionic trait on anybody yet.

According to the ship design files, only the Spiritualist has Psi Jump Drives.
However the Awakened Empires operate under different rules, AI type and possibly designs. So they might always get Psi jump drive.

Weird. Twice now I have gotten Psi Jump Drives from fighting with Spiritualist FEs, but also in my current game I found Psi Jump Drives in the debris left by the Militant Isolationist I fought with, and he hadn't even awakened yet.

 

[The Founder]

Weird. Twice now I have gotten Psi Jump Drives from fighting with Spiritualist FEs, but also in my current game I found Psi Jump Drives in the debris left by the Militant Isolationist I fought with, and he hadn't even awakened yet.

Yes, really wierd. I this is the ship design for the Xenophobe Titan:

# Massive Ship
ship_design = {
    name = "Imperium"
    ship_size = massive_ship_fallen_empire
    section = {
        template = "fallen_empire_massive_warship_key"
        slot = "mid"
      
        component = {
            slot = "EXTRA_LARGE_01"
            template = "TITAN_LASER"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "STRIKE_CRAFT_01"
            template = "LARGE_BOMBERS_HANGAR_3" 
        }
        component = {
            slot = "STRIKE_CRAFT_02"
            template = "LARGE_BOMBERS_HANGAR_3" 
        } 
        component = {
            slot = "STRIKE_CRAFT_03"
            template = "LARGE_FIGHTERS_HANGAR_3" 
        } 
        component = {
            slot = "STRIKE_CRAFT_04"
            template = "LARGE_FIGHTERS_HANGAR_3" 
        }
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_GUN_01"
            template = "LARGE_KINETIC_ARTILLERY_2"
        }     
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_GUN_02"
            template = "LARGE_KINETIC_ARTILLERY_2"
        }     
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_GUN_03"
            template = "LARGE_KINETIC_ARTILLERY_2"
        }     
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_GUN_04"
            template = "LARGE_KINETIC_ARTILLERY_2"
        } 
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_GUN_05"
            template = "LARGE_KINETIC_ARTILLERY_2"
        }     
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_GUN_06"
            template = "LARGE_KINETIC_ARTILLERY_2"
        } 
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_GUN_07"
            template = "LARGE_KINETIC_ARTILLERY_2"
        } 
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_GUN_08"
            template = "LARGE_KINETIC_ARTILLERY_2"
        }         
        component = {
            slot = "MEDIUM_GUN_01"
            template = "FLAK_BATTERY_2"
        }     
        component = {
            slot = "MEDIUM_GUN_02"
            template = "FLAK_BATTERY_2"
        }     
        component = {
            slot = "MEDIUM_GUN_03"
            template = "FLAK_BATTERY_2"
        }     
        component = {
            slot = "MEDIUM_GUN_04"
            template = "FLAK_BATTERY_2"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_UTILITY_1"
            template = "LARGE_ZERO_POINT_REACTOR"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_UTILITY_2"
            template = "LARGE_ZERO_POINT_REACTOR"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_UTILITY_3"
            template = "LARGE_ZERO_POINT_REACTOR"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_UTILITY_4"
            template = "LARGE_ZERO_POINT_REACTOR"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_UTILITY_5"
            template = "LARGE_ZERO_POINT_REACTOR"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_UTILITY_6"
            template = "LARGE_ZERO_POINT_REACTOR"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_UTILITY_7"
            template = "LARGE_ZERO_POINT_REACTOR"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_UTILITY_8"
            template = "LARGE_ZERO_POINT_REACTOR"
        }     
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_UTILITY_9"
            template = "AFTERBURNER_2"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_UTILITY_10"
            template = "LARGE_ARMOR_5"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_UTILITY_11"
            template = "LARGE_ARMOR_5"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_UTILITY_12"
            template = "LARGE_ARMOR_5"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_UTILITY_13"
            template = "LARGE_ARMOR_5"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_UTILITY_14"
            template = "LARGE_ARMOR_5"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_UTILITY_15"
            template = "LARGE_ARMOR_5"
        }     
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_UTILITY_16"
            template = "LARGE_SHIELD_5"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_UTILITY_17"
            template = "LARGE_SHIELD_5"
        }     
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_UTILITY_18"
            template = "LARGE_SHIELD_5"
        }     
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_UTILITY_19"
            template = "LARGE_SHIELD_5"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "LARGE_UTILITY_20"
            template = "LARGE_SHIELD_5"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "AUX_UTILITY_1"
            template = "SHIELD_RECHARGER"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "AUX_UTILITY_2"
            template = "SHIELD_RECHARGER"
        } 
        component = {
            slot = "AUX_UTILITY_3"
            template = "SHIELD_RECHARGER"
        }             
    }
    required_component="SHIP_SENSOR_4"
    required_component="JUMP_DRIVE_1"
    required_component="BATTLESHIP_COMBAT_COMPUTER_3"
    required_component="SHIP_THRUSTER_4"
  
    # For special buildable
    is_special_buildable = yes
    allow_buildable_trigger = is_awakened_fallen_empire_xenophobe
}

Psi Jumpdrive is listed with "PSI_JUMP_DRIVE_1" in the files.