Psionic in Utopia

[BlackUmbrellas]

... which is spiritualist.

I'm actually inclined to give this one to aono- introspection, in and of itself, is not a "Spiritualist" domain. Everybody is capable of introspection to some degree.

However, the sort of introspection required to begin unlocking psionic abilities is doubtlessly a step beyond- everyone can be introspective, but not everyone can dedicate their lives to it, to eschewing the world around them in favour of discerning the deepest truths of their own psyche and the nature of reality, to accepting a worldview in which their thoughts are not dictated by the world around them but rather the world around them is a manifestation of their own thoughts.

 

[Arkangilos]

Maybe this will help:

A Materialist psychologist would say, "ah, yes. You are depressed. Here are some medicines, it will help control the chemical embalances in your brain."

A spiritualist psychologist would say, "ah yes, you are depressed. You have a lot of dark things in your heart, and you need to confront them. Write a journal and think about these problems. Overcome them."

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I just dont agree with the arguments your making completely preventing anyone but spiritualists from eventually attaining psionic potential, even if extremely weak by comparison to devoted, spiritual empires. They, after all, somehow reached out to the stars despite being "spiritual" which almost seems like an oxymoron, but yea

Now you're being silly.

Nothing prevents a Spiritualist society from developing spacefaring technology- it just shapes how they think about and perceive that technology.

Again: there are quite possibly psionic individuals within the UNE. Within any of our empires. They're just not widely accepted or considered a credible possibility, and they're certainly not embraced into the upper leadership- unless there is a dramatic event to change that, such as the event that can give one of your scientists the Psionic Expertise trait.

 

[Arkangilos]

I just dont agree with the arguments your making completely preventing anyone but spiritualists from eventually attaining psionic potential, even if extremely weak by comparison to devoted, spiritual empires. They, after all, somehow reached out to the stars despite being "spiritual" which almost seems like an oxymoron, but yea

Think of it like the Jedi and the force. The Jedi, Sith, etc. all have scientific facts behind the force. They can measure it. But none of them can utilize the force without certain mindsets and actions. The Jedi use the force, and push out Dark thoughts. They are spiritualists focused on the positive, self control, and "balance".

The Sith use it by unleashing their passions.

In each case, even with none Jedi/ non Sith, they are deeply spiritual.

 

[aono]

Do we, right now, put stock in the idea that a monk could meditate his way to levitation?

Nope. Because every time ethnograph came into monastery when monks were supposed to fly (and they came), he found no flying monks.

A spiritualist psychologist would say, "ah yes, you are depressed. You have a lot of dark things in your heart, and you need to confront them. Write a journal and think about these problems. Overcome them."

I'm sorry, don't you just mixed psychologists and psychotherapeuts?
Anyway. Do you agree that second school of psychotherapeuts exists?

 

[Opizze]

Seems stupid that spiritualists gain everything from technology/materialism AND everything from spiritualism at no deficit. Would you not agree with that? Meanwhile materialists are completely shut out of anything spiritual even though logically there should be SOME sort of opposite relationship there, right?

 

[Opizze]

Also stop patronizing me by A) name calling and B) saying I'm being this or that. Debate me on the arguments i make

 

[aono]

Think of it like the Jedi and the force. The Jedi, Sith, etc. all have scientific facts behind the force. They can measure it. But none of them can utilize the force without certain mindsets and actions. The Jedi use the force, and push out Dark thoughts. They are spiritualists focused on the positive, self control, and "balance".

The Sith use it by unleashing their passions.

Yes, please, think of the Jedi and the force.
Are Siths not focused on material? Aren't they afraid of death, because it will end them? Aren't they hoarding material wealth and power?

 

[Arkangilos]

How do you know robotics won't be shut out to spiritualists in the upcoming patch?

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Seems stupid that spiritualists gain everything from technology/materialism AND everything from spiritualism at no deficit. Would you not agree with that? Meanwhile materialists are completely shut out of anything spiritual even though logically there should be SOME sort of opposite relationship there, right?

The robotics tech is effectively useless to Spiritualists, so, no- I wouldn't say that they get all the benefits of Materialism.

 

[Arkangilos]

Yes, please, think of the Jedi and the force.
Are Siths not focused on material? Aren't they afraid of death, because it will end them? Aren't they hoarding material wealth and power?

That's not what makes you a spiritualist or Materialist! God damn dude.
And it's clear you don't understand the Sith!

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Yes, please, think of the Jedi and the force.
Are Siths not focused on material? Aren't they afraid of death, because it will end them? Aren't they hoarding material wealth and power?

The accumulation of wealth and power is not itself inherently "Materialist" (at least, certainly not in the way Stellaris uses the term).

The Sith are all about self-gratification and the feeding of their egos and vices- they revel in a sort of Ubermenche mentality of exceptionalism through personal power. That's not opposed to a Spiritualist belief set- in fact, it meshes neatly with the view of reality as an extension of one's will and perceptions. The Sith consider themselves powerful- they channel that power into reshaping reality to reflect that self-perception.

 

[Opizze]

The robotics tech is effectively useless to Spiritualists, so, no- I wouldn't say that they get all the benefits of Materialism.

what benefits would those be?

 

[Arkangilos]

what benefits would those be?

Research time, synthetics at full capacity/without angry pops, governments dedicated to research bonuses, etc.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

what benefits would those be?

Well, certainly as of 1.5, the benefits of automation/robotics technology.

Spiritualists are incredibly opposed to robotics (read as autonomous/AI, in case anyone was going to nitpick and claim "then they shouldn't have planes!") technology, and will be intensely unhappy if it is utilized within their society. Materialists, meanwhile, get a... was it cost or maintenance reduction for robotic POPs? Robots also allow the easy colonization of any world regardless of biome.

Lacking effective access to robotics technology, Spiritualists lose out on the production bonuses it allows and the territorial usage it permits.

 

[Opizze]

I guess i never thought of materialism as leading one toward synthetics. Feels bad man

 

[aono]

The robotics tech is effectively useless to Spiritualists, so, no- I wouldn't say that they get all the benefits of Materialism.

I'm sorry, but why? Ok, let's take an approach that you need to be spiritualists (whatever it means - @Arkangilos seems to stretch a thing too much, I believe, but let's take it for the arguement sake). You need to concentrate on non-material things, on your soul, you need introspection. Ok.
What do require robotics spiritualists haven't?

Spiritualists are incredibly opposed to robotics (read as autonomous/AI, in case anyone was going to nitpick and claim "then they shouldn't have planes!") technology, and will be intensely unhappy if it is utilized within their society.

Once again - why? What's the principial difference between autonomous robot and plane?

The accumulation of wealth and power is not itself inherently "Materialist" (at least, certainly not in the way Stellaris uses the term).

Sure. I'm fully agree.
But there was an thesis - materialists can't do psi, because they're concentrating on non-material things not enough.
Wealth and power definitly are material things? Or we declare every politic a spiritualist just because he wants power?

 

[Arkangilos]

Sith don't collect things for materialistic needs. They collect things to feed their emotions. Their whole code is using passion to strengthen their emotions to get stronger. That is the ONLY reason they collect things, as a SPIRITUAL channel.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I'm sorry, but why? Ok, let's take an approach that you need to be spiritualists (whatever it means - @Arkangilos seems to stretch a thing too much, I believe, but let's take it for the arguement sake). You need to concentrate on non-material things, on your soul, you need introspection. Ok.
What do require robotics spiritualists haven't?

Spiritualists can certainly invent or build robots- they just can't really use them easily, because they see them as soulless abominations. Why would you want to create "fake" people? That's creepy. That's morally wrong. Hence the happiness penalty for legalizing robots in a Spiritualist empire.

Sure. I'm fully agree.
But there was an thesis - materialists can't do psi, because they're concentrating on non-material things not enough.
Wealth and power definitly are material things? Or we declare every political a spiritualist just because he wants power?

You have definitely misunderstood the argument being made. Within the context of this discussion, Spiritualism represents a belief system that supports and prioritizes deep introspection and a belief that perception begets reality, rather than the other way around. Materialism represents the idea that reality is fixed and that everything is explainable through logical, observable properties- that our perceptions are informed by reality.

A Sith, viewed as a Spiritualist, is entirely capable of valuing wealth and power- because they like it. Their introspection has led them to a personal discovery that to them, wealth and power feeds their passions, and that through those passions they can bend reality to their whims and accumulate more wealth and power. Sith feed their vices and dark urges, then use those emotions as fuel to force the world to conform to their perceptions.

 

[Opizze]

I agree with that so how does materialism lead toward synthetics? Making "fake" people is somehow the ultimate expression of the material plane?

I understand your arguments about spirtualism and robots, but what's an inverted scenario for materialists? Or what's the opposite?