Psionic in Utopia

[BlackUmbrellas]

Extrapolating from your argument though: every human based civilization from Earth in game should have psionics.

And yes dumbass, I realize psionics are not real.

Here's the thing: a few individuals having low-level psionic abilities through dedicating their lives to introspection and various forms of spiritual enlightenment =/= access to the psionic technology tree.

Every society on Earth probably has had psychic individuals- that's clearly what the in-game text for Psionic Ascension implies. But it's only when, as a society, those individuals and their methods are embraced and widely-accepted- something only possible in a Spiritualist society- that such things can be harnessed.

 

[Opizze]

Presumably Buddhists still exist in this fictional human future where the U.N. of all things took control of the world? I mean seriously where does the logic fail you?

 

[aono]

This is what a lot of you don't get. Spiritualism isn't about a god. You can be a spiritualist and not believe in gods.

You're still trying to defend a position "spiritualism isn't about a god" which I don't actually attacks. I'm not saying "spiritualists all about the god!" here. That's my opponents saying "hell, spiritualists are about gods and spirits, psi about gods and spirits, THAT'S why materialists can't be psionics!". I believe, spiritualism isn't religion (even if game actually moved that way), you can not to believe about gods and spirits, and you don't need to be religious man and blindly pleasing spirits from That Side to have psi.
I'm against another point. I'm saying that if materialist sees that some meditative practice actually allow you to read minds, they will follow this practice. Not because they are spiritualists, but because it allows to read minds. I'm saying that if technique gives you some benefits, materialists will follow this technique.

You have to reach "enlightenment" through introspection and casting away material things. You are a spiritualist.

Please, look into "Mind over Matter" event. No, you haven't reach any enlightenment. It's just happened. Why? Nobody had any clue. MAYBE it happened because all empire SUDDENLY became spiritualists, but it's strange enough - no spiritualist sciencist in-game offered it as explanation. It's not "our thorough pursuit to spirituality ended at last".
Also, you know, psykers in WH40K aren't actually nesserely casting away material things. Quite the opposite - often psykers using their power to gain more "earth" power and material wealth. Also a long healthy life. Because you don't actually need "casting away material things" to use such an objectively exited phenomena as a Warp.

They HAVE to focus on their soul, or they unleash hell and die.

Just in case you don't know. In WH40K you can actually haven't any focus (and there is a doubt about soul) and use stable psy. That's psychic servitors of Adeptus Mechanicus, that grants AM separate "mail" network. Also there are a lot of artifacts that don't have any soul and still able to produce psy effects.
So no. They don't have to focus, even if it helps.
Because, once more, Warp existence is objective fact, not subjective.

 

[Arkangilos]

That doesn't mean they are in control of the government, or that the government will adopt the buddhist ways.

 

[Opizze]

Still following your logic we should have access to some low level psionic leaders. I'm not asking for a game breaking access to high level psionics, just a logical interpretation of this fictional universe.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Presumably Buddhists still exist in this fictional human future where the U.N. of all things took control of the world? I mean seriously where does the logic fail you?

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Yeah, Buddhists probably still exist within the UNE. Some might even have low-level psionic abilities- but there also exists the possibility that, simply through modernization and cultural contamination, the level of spiritualism required to foster those might have been lost.

That still doesn't mean access to psionic techs, though. Because Buddhists and their spiritualism are not the qualities embraced by the UNE society- the UNE is not a spiritualist civilization. They wont put stock in the idea that, simply through faith and introspection, you can alter reality. They will write off stories of secluded monks learning to levitate as myths. If those secluded monks do still exist, they have spent their lives in seclusion, meditating and introspecting, not joining the political ranks and becoming leaders.

 

[Arkangilos]

You're still trying to defend a position "spiritualism isn't about a god" which I don't actually attacks. I'm not saying "spiritualists all about the god!" here. That's my opponents saying "hell, spiritualists are about gods and spirits, psi about gods and spirits, THAT'S why materialists can't be psionics!". I believe, spiritualism isn't religion (even if game actually moved that way), you can not to believe about gods and spirits, and you don't need to be religious man and blindly pleasing spirits from That Side to have psi.
I'm against another point. I'm saying that if materialist sees that some meditative practice actually allow you to read minds, they will follow this practice. Not because they are spiritualists, but because it allows to read minds. I'm saying that if technique gives you some benefits, materialists will follow this technique.


Please, look into "Mind over Matter" event. No, you haven't reach any enlightenment. It's just happened. Why? Nobody had any clue. MAYBE it happened because all empire SUDDENLY became spiritualists, but it's strange enough - no spiritualist sciencist in-game offered it as explanation. It's not "our thorough pursuit to spirituality ended at last".
Also, you know, psykers in WH40K aren't actually nesserely casting away material things. Quite the opposite - often psykers using their power to gain more "earth" power and material wealth. Also a long healthy life. Because you don't actually need "casting away material things" to use such an objectively exited phenomena as a Warp.


Just in case you don't know. In WH40K you can actually haven't any focus (and there is a doubt about soul) and use stable psy. That's psychic servitors of Adeptus Mechanicus, that grants AM separate "mail" network. Also there are a lot of artifacts that don't have any soul and still able to produce psy effects.
So no. They don't have to focus, even if it helps.
Because, once more, Warp existence is objective fact, not subjective.

I've already made it clear I am no longer debating you on this subject.

But your "doubt on soul" comment at the end destroys your credibility. It is an undisputed fact in 40k that all beings that are not blanks have souls.

Also, what is your source for psychic mail servitors? How about you just start posting your sources from now on when quoting 40k. Here is a tip, though, be ready because I have a shit ton of books dedicated to the warp, psychic powers, the gods, and the Imperium.

 

[Arkangilos]

Still following your logic we should have access to some low level psionic leaders. I'm not asking for a game breaking access to high level psionics, just a logical interpretation of this fictional universe.

And how do you know you won't have a leader with the psychic trait, ever? The only solid thing is that you can't research psychic tech. But I've had psychic trait leaders WITHOUT the tech.

 

[aono]

They wont put stock in the idea that, simply through faith and introspection, you can alter reality. They will write off stories of secluded monks learning to levitate as myths.

And that's another question I'm asking - WHY?
We do agree that not every spiritualist is black monk who is trying to burn every piece of knowledge beyond his limited imagination. Can you show materialists same favor and don't picture every one of them as a 17th century materialist who declaring that every piece of knowledge beyond his limited imagination isn't exist?

 

[aono]

But your "doubt on soul" comment at the end destroys your credibility. It is an undisputed fact in 40k that all beings that are not blanks have souls.

No it's not.
Necrons aren't blanks and they don't have souls. AIs are not blanks and they don't have souls (and that's why creating of AI is forbidden). It's a very big question do a single tyranid have a soul. And it's quite disputable INSIDE setting question do servitors still have a soul.

 

[Arkangilos]

And that's another question I'm asking - WHY?
We do agree that not every spiritualist is black monk who is trying to burn every piece of knowledge beyond his limited imagination. Can you show materialists same favor and don't picture every one of them as a 17th century materialist who declaring that every piece of knowledge beyond his limited imagination isn't exist?

Name one prominent scientist working for the government that is focused more on personal introspection than materialistic science.

 

[aono]

Name one prominent scientist working for the government that is focused more on personal introspection than materialistic science.

Should I name every psychologist?

 

[Arkangilos]

No it's not.
Necrons aren't blanks and they don't have souls. AIs are not blanks and they don't have souls (and that's why creating of AI is forbidden). It's a very big question do a single tyranid have a soul. And it's quite disputable INSIDE setting question do servitors still have a soul.

Source, please.
Necrons also are not psykers, and I would t classify them as living beings. The Tyranids are the only ones that are really debatable, and it isn't conclusive.

 

[Arkangilos]

Should I name every psychologist?

Oh please, I've taken psychology classes given by psychologists. They don't care about enlightenment. They care about chemical reactions.

 

[Arkangilos]

I said introspection, not "I think this works because of this."

If you can't see the difference between spiritual enlightenment and psychology it's even more reason to consider you not worth debating.

 

[Opizze]

Oh please, I've taken psychology classes given by psychologists. They don't care about enlightenment. They care about chemical reactions.

They also don't discredit homeopathic or non-traditional treatments if those treatments have some measurable benefit

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

And that's another question I'm asking - WHY?
We do agree that not every spiritualist is black monk who is trying to burn every piece of knowledge beyond his limited imagination. Can you show materialists same favor and don't picture every one of them as a 17th century materialist who declaring that every piece of knowledge beyond his limited imagination isn't exist?

Do we, right now, put stock in the idea that a monk could meditate his way to levitation?

No. Because our culture has been taught that that sort of thing is impossible. Its mysticism, and mysticism is, at best, parlour tricks. There are ways to explain away a levitating monk without psionics- trickery, the foibles of human perception and memory- and those explanations would be shielding the rare reality of Actual Psionic Power and the few that possess it from public perception.

Part of unlocking an inkling of psionic potential is, quite likely, coming to understand that it shouldn't be used as a magic trick, paraded around for others to gawk at. It is deeply personal, deeply spiritual, and trying to analyze it without respecting that might well "break" it.

 

[aono]

If you can't see the difference between spiritual enlightenment and psychology it's even more reason to consider you not worth debating.

I believe if I say "introspection ISN'T spiritual enlightenment" people here declare I'm " distracting from the more important discussion" again, right?
But I'm taking this risk.
Introspection ISN'T spiritual enlightenment. Introspection is an examination of one's own thoughts and feelings.

 

[Arkangilos]

I believe if I say "introspection ISN'T spiritual enlightenment" people here declare I'm " distracting from the more important discussion" again, right?
But I'm taking this risk.
Introspection ISN'T spiritual enlightenment. Introspection is an examination of one's own thoughts and feelings.

... which is spiritualist.

 

[Opizze]

I just dont agree with the arguments your making completely preventing anyone but spiritualists from eventually attaining psionic potential, even if extremely weak by comparison to devoted, spiritual empires. They, after all, somehow reached out to the stars despite being "spiritual" which almost seems like an oxymoron, but yea