Psionic in Utopia

[TheAtreides84]

Actually, I'm not a specialist in this particular sphere, but one of my culturologist friend who reseach religion claims it's the very point of the word when it just appeared. It was <s>spiritualists</s> theology shortcut to discern things that not exist. God (christian) and his angels exists so they're natural. Zeus and home spirits do not exist (and they can't exist in a God-created world, well, theology is quite complex science) so they're supernatural.

Well, from a theological point of view God is supernatural in the literal sense of the word: he is above nature and totally independent from it, even as he influence it (that's the orthodox judeo-christian view, then you can have people like Spinoza arguing that God is the same as nature, aka pantheism or ilozoism). But "supernatural" is just a theological category, can't be a scientific one. If a scientist somehow demonstrated the existence of God, he would simply have to categorize it as a feature of the natural universe.

 

[aono]

Well, from a theological point of view God is supernatural in the literal sense of the word: he is above nature and totally independent from it, even as he influence it (that's the orthodox judeo-christian view, then you can have people like Spinoza arguing that God is the same as nature, aka pantheism or ilozoism).

"Supernatural" was a shortcut invented by Catholic theologists, and, let's say, Buddhist or Hindu theologists had another position. Also it's not "orthodox judeo-christian view", because there are A LOT of confessions and sects with actually VERY different views.
The very point of said catholic theological view was a statement that God can't defy natural laws, because his will actually IS natural laws. There is no any separate and independent "nature" with God actually outside of it. God is one and only entity that IS. God is no more supernatural as human is superheart or superliver, actually even less. Later, as I know, catholics made a face about current understanding of supernatural, but in 17th century it was quite popular view.
Just in case, it's not mean anything with current understanding of words, and I'm not claiming here I'm right or I'm an expert. It's something my collegue someonce told me.

 

[terrycloth]

Do the same logic works opposite way? Can spiritualists utilize the mechanism that lets robots or cybernetics works?

Well, they can build robots but they hate them. They can't follow the reasoning that makes materialists accept Synths as people and give them rights.

 

[terrycloth]

Well, i disagree with that statement then.
Magic defies the laws of physics, period.
I snap with my fingers,a nd out of nothingnes a tank apears, that's magic yea, because i created a thing from literaly nothing.

I agree on 'magic should violate physics'. It should follow its own rules.

But what the saying means is that if the technology is limited by the laws of physics (or at least if you can tell how it's limited by the laws of physics) then it is insufficiently advanced. If you can look at it and figure out something about how it must work, then it's not magic to you.

 

[aono]

Well, they can build robots but they hate them. They can't follow the reasoning that makes materialists accept Synths as people and give them rights.

So we actually have a situation where:
1. All and every spiritualist have same thoughts about robots and robotics.
2. Spiritualists CAN do something Materialists CAN'T, but not vise versa, because when it comes to describe reality spiritualists are right, and materialists are wrong.
Am I right?

 

[Opizze]

I don't understand why my multi-planet galactic empire, a direct democracy of individualistic, militaristic and materialistic people, should for any logical reason be arbitrarily prevented from becoming psionic in any sense. Should they also, for whatever equally arbitrary reason, be illogically prevented from developing telepathy, or the extra sensory perception of radio waves as some of you scientifically term it.

Creating new playstyles shouldn't equate to enclosing those playstyles within your own illogical boundaries so that, simply for the sake of making them unique, people can't play the game the way they want to.

 

[terrycloth]

So we actually have a situation where:
1. All and every spiritualist have same thoughts about robots and robotics.
2. Spiritualists CAN do something Materialists CAN'T, but not vise versa, because when it comes to describe reality spiritualists are right, and materialists are wrong.
Am I right?

Spiritualists can also be wrong. They look at what materialists are doing (the whole robotic, cybernetic tree) and it looks like a horrific way to commit mass suicide.

But yes, materialist technology can be replicated by anyone. If it couldn't then it wouldn't fit with their philosophy. It might make sense to make it not be reasearchable by spiritualists, the same way that individualists can't decide to start purging people even though it's physically possible.

It'd actually be helpful to not have the useless tech show up in your options, since it's not worth using as a spiritualist.

 

[Opizze]

To follow up on this: it makes a ton more sense if, for whatever reason you believe, spiritualists are more in tune with the "psychic" plane then perhaps they should simply have a much greater chance of discovering and pursuing this avenue of power than other empires who are not spiritualists. I mean i just don't understand limiting the gameplay for such an arbitrary reason. You can accomplish essentially the same thing by adjusting the chance occurrence of psionics according to empire ethics

 

[Rip Off Productions]

I think Psycic powers/benefits should be locked behind a biological trait("Psionic Potential" or something like that); either bought for a high price at the start or gene modded in later.

at that point you can then fallow the ascension path to unlock it properly, and your Ethos will change how you can interact with the Shroud; for examples, Spiritualists make deals with the "god"-like Entities, Materialists syphon energy/materials and maybe some research buffs from the ether(think Argent energy from the recent DOOM reboot), militarists acquire vast power for their armies/fleets, Authoritarians gain brainwashing/mind control over their subjects, and so on, or at least the chance/ability to do all these things will be skewed towards or away from these things based on Ethos; with all of these carrying the risk of drawing forth the Lovecraftian monsters from beyond.

 

[Opizze]

Yea and referring specifically to Babylon 5 (as Wiz and many others seem fond of doing) telepathy seemed to be a biological eventuality. Some races arrived there much quicker than others, some became vastly more powerful than others, and some used it differently than others, but none were expressly prohibited by any logic presented by the show. I seem to follow that line of logic whereas many of you have created some different line of logic.

 

[aono]

Spiritualists can also be wrong. They look at what materialists are doing (the whole robotic, cybernetic tree) and it looks like a horrific way to commit mass suicide.

I'm saying about another thing.
You see, there is a point in "spiritualists says robotic is horrifing, because reasons". But they can do robotics, because, well, "materialist technology can be replicated by anyone". That's ok, that's the very point of being materialistic. Phylosophical blocks as they are is normal for me.
But, first of all, they should be in-ok with phylosophy. No-way will materialists actually ignore psi when it's appear, and events as they shown in teasers actually ARE the ways materialists will react to sudden psi. Yes, materialists will never say "it's god and spirits". But "we had sudden genetic jump and now we have psi"?
Secondly, I don't like declaring some ethoses "right" or "wrong" in phylosphical sense. If souls are actually exists, and materialists just plainly refuse them, they're wrong. It's not "it's horrible" or "it's not horrible", it's "you actually wrong, no matter how do I think about it".

Actually, also I don't like it because it because it make ethoses very narrow. They, actually, already are, but it's quite possible to ignore; with big roads to ascension it will be too noticable. I mean, if you actually ask real-life spiritualists, there will be different opinions about AI, including "it's impossible" and "it's a great gift to be able to grand divine spark to mechanised creations!". But now you'll be locked on narrow definition, no deviations. That's bad with xenophile militarists isn't able to actually invade to primitive worlds (or every xenophile being able to actually educate stone-age ones!), and that's bad here as well.
But, I'm afraid, it's seen as the very conclusion of "Wiz Doctrine" - when you're making ethoses "classes", a basic factor what can you do and what can't, and wants to block them to distinct playstyle, you'll have to make this ethoses narrow. Another way they won't fit into playstyle!

Yea and referring specifically to Babylon 5 (as Wiz and many others seem fond of doing) telepathy seemed to be a biological eventuality.

More about it - in B5 telepathy is actually ARTIFICIAL - Vorlons just put it there by biological upgrade. Narns, who are actually spiritual people, haven't psi, because all carriers of psi gene was killed. Humans, who are materialists (personal - mostly, governmental - definitly), have.

 

[aono]

I think Psycic powers/benefits should be locked behind a biological trait("Psionic Potential" or something like that); either bought for a high price at the start or gene modded in later.

That's nice idea as it is (actually I defended it before, and in the end just made a minimod), but I believe "psi should be one of Ascension ways" is already set in stone. So I'm trying to stay in this frame.

 

[Arkangilos]

Think about it like this:

In this scenario, All humans have this latent psyker gene. However, in order to utilize it, you have to meditate and focus on your own inner spirit. Your life philosophy becomes similar to a Buddhist.
You have to reach "enlightenment" through introspection and casting away material things. You are a spiritualist.

Yes, a Materialist can observe those things, but because they aren't spiritualists (they don't put much into non-material things, they care less about their inner "soul" and spirit, etc.) they will never reach the enlightenment necessary to overcome the barriers and control it.

"But 40k Psykers!" Well until they adapt a spiritualist mentality, they can't control their abilities. They HAVE to focus on their soul, or they unleash hell and die.

This is what a lot of you don't get. Spiritualism isn't about a god. You can be a spiritualist and not believe in gods.

 

[Opizze]

More about it - in B5 telepathy is actually ARTIFICIAL - Vorlons just put it there by biological upgrade. Narns, who are actually spiritual people, haven't psi, because all carriers of psi gene was killed. Humans, who are materialists (personal - mostly, governmental - definitly), have.

If you go back and watch the explanations of it it actually was considered a biological occurrence, thr Vorlons simply helped it along by genetically engineering it en masse so telepaths could be used against the Shadows

 

[Opizze]

Think about it like this:

In this scenario, All humans have this latent psyker gene. However, in order to utilize it, you have to meditate and focus on your own inner spirit. Your life philosophy becomes similar to a Buddhist.
You have to reach "enlightenment" through introspection and casting away material things. You are a spiritualist.

Yes, a Materialist can observe those things, but because they aren't spiritualists (they don't put much into non-material things, they care less about their inner "soul" and spirit, etc.) they will never reach the enlightenment necessary to overcome the barriers and control it.

"But 40k Psykers!" Well until they adapt a spiritualist mentality, they can't control their abilities. They HAVE to focus on their soul, or they unleash hell and die.

Why aren't Buddhists psionic then?

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Why aren't Buddhists psionic then?

Because psionics are not real, smartass.
But within the Stellaris universe, there may well have been Buddhist monks who unlocked low-level psionic abilities- as the in-game text suggests, psionics are the explanation for tales and legends of mystics and sorcerers and miracles.

 

[Arkangilos]

Why aren't Buddhists psionic then?

Did you not read what I said? "Assume in this case all humans have the latent psychic trait."

Well we obviously don't have that trait in real life.

 

[Opizze]

Extrapolating from your argument though: every human based civilization from Earth in game should have psionics.

And yes dumbass, I realize psionics are not real.

 

[Rip Off Productions]

That's nice idea as it is (actually I defended it before, and in the end just made a minimod), but I believe "psi should be one of Ascension ways" is already set in stone. So I'm trying to stay in this frame.

oh definitely, but I'd hope "Psionics for everyone"+"Psionics as a starting biological trait' will be a mod.

 

[Arkangilos]

Extrapolating from your argument though: every human based civilization from Earth in game should have psionics.

And yes dumbass, I realize psionics are not real.

Where do you get that? One: we are not in the future when the gene would be fully discovered. Two: we aren't spiritualists. When's the last time you've seen scientists focused more on their own "spiritual energy"? I'm not saying scientists in spiritualist societies aren't going to research anything, but a spiritual scientist will put a lot more effort into some sort of self enlightenment than a Materialist one.