Psionic in Utopia

[Velorian]

DA example is a great one. Imagine a man who goes out and throw a fireball. It's actual fireball, it's plasma ball created from nowhere, flying to a target and blowing. Because this man is weaking the veil by their very presence.
Of course, I can imagine materialist who denies "all that crap" about spirits, transcedence and so on. But will he deny a fireball?

Well it only applies to a society that has not met consistent psionics yet. If another species uses it then attempts to copy might be met with complete failure despite doing it exactly the same.

If met with concrete proof, like fireballs or a clairvoyant who can consistently guess what people are thinking in the next room or something, then a materialist would stop claiming it's bogus. That's not the same as being able to replicate it, which gaining the techs would imply. For all we know the "spirits" of the Shroud might be withholding access to entire species when they've made a choice like large scale cybernetic implants, or perhaps it's incompatible with the Shroud itself.

The restriction is similar to the choice we need to make about FTL types. Once you lock on to one way of thinking you have no reason to embrace the others, it at least makes sense why you don't develop them yourself.

That doesn't explain why you can't shift after witnessing how other people do it, but then it's the same problem. I can think of a reason why the choices can't be combined, but not why you can't change your mind if you were willing to give up the other way of doing things.

 

[Velorian]

Wich is? it rings a bell, but i have forgotten. Please educate me on this matter

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

 

[Calvax]

Well it only applies to a society that has not met consistent psionics yet. If another species uses it then attempts to copy might be met with complete failure despite doing it exactly the same.

If met with concrete proof, like fireballs or a clairvoyant who can consistently guess what people are thinking in the next room or something, then a materialist would stop claiming it's bogus. That's not the same as being able to replicate it, which gaining the techs would imply. For all we know the "spirits" of the Shroud might be withholding access to entire species when they've made a choice like large scale cybernetic implants, or perhaps it's incompatible with the Shroud itself.

This is exactly how I think about it; that psionics is a gift from extradimensional aliens with vast powers to alter reality. Perhaps farrrr in the future materialists could fully understand the physics behind the psychics but for the duration of the game's timeline a materialist effort to uncover the laws behind the phenomenon would be thwarted.

 

[TheAtreides84]

I understand the idea of balance that inspired them to reserve psionics just to spiritualists, but doesn't really make sense looking at what the spiritualists governments are. Psi has always be condemned by religious institutions in our history.

 

[TheAtreides84]

I feel this makes very little sense. Psionic phenomena in Stellaris aren't tale tales or pseudoscience. They are verifiable, reproducible, documentable and possible to weaponise on a large scale. No materialist worth their salt (and/or Riggan Spice) can deny the existence of something when it has an observable effect on the universe, such as... the friendly neighbourhood Holy Guardians psi-jumping half across the galaxy and raining mind-powers on anyone who trespasses on their holy worlds. Psionics in Stellaris is not a matter of faith. It's not subjective, it's not imaginary, it's not even that subtle - some civilisations use it to move their spaceships around! It can be observed, therefore it's science. Anyone who refuses to acknowledge the existence of something that exists is not someone who would be treated seriously in my Materialistic empire, let alone given any degree of authority on how my species should evolve.

You should consider the sheep-goat effect, a well known effect in parapsychology because of which the statistics results of a battery of experiments tend to change according to the bias of the experimenter. A materialist sees psi and find another explanation for it, simple.

 

[Velorian]

I understand the idea of balance that inspired them to reserve psionics just to spiritualists, but doesn't really make sense looking at what the spiritualists governments are. Psi has always be condemned by religious institutions in our history.

Depends on what the teachings say. If they say it's a gift from god then they won't condemn it. Eastern religions and various pagan faiths used magic in their ceremonies.

For all we know humanity might eventually discover that a secretive spirit is masquerading as "god" and appearing only to the faithful here and there in visions from time to time. It would be impossible to prove or disprove as it can't be replicated if the spirit actively doesn't wish to be observed. Either it does it for sport or to feed off the energies of the faithful (Like the Ori from Stargate).

Perhaps that then is the origin of most religions, various spirits appearing to people and causing visions which then are not hallucinations, or at least not self-made ones. Maybe spiritual people are easier to reach for such spirits.

 

[Rubidium]

I understand the idea of balance that inspired them to reserve psionics just to spiritualists, but doesn't really make sense looking at what the spiritualists governments are. Psi has always be condemned by religious institutions in our history.

Depends what you mean by "psi." If you just mean "supernatural," remember that e.g. the Catholic Church literally has a protocol in place for "verifying" the existence of miracles (which they go through before declaring people saints), not to mention still having exorcists trained to expel demons.

Faith healers are still a thing, as is speaking in tongues, and who could forget snake handlers? Plenty of Christians will "pray for someone" with an expectation that it will potentially do something (again, in defiance of a strictly "materialist" understanding). The supernatural is literally baked into the religion (which, after all, worships someone who conducted miraculous healings and rose from the dead).

All of this is in a modern, Christian context, which is a strictly monotheistic religion. Plenty of other religions have even more examples that could fit in well.

And again, the existence of "the Shroud" suggests that psionics are a manifestation of something in another plane of existence. Psionics aren't individual spoon-benders any more; they are literally the manifestations of some sort of WH40k-esque warp entities. It's quite reasonable to imagine that they only choose to contact and "awaken" species with a spiritual mindset (and as long as your government has a spiritual ethos, that means at least some of them are spiritually minded). If you want to fanwank, you can even argue that once the genie is out of the bottle it can't be gotten rid of, but you still need the initial spark (justifying the ability to ethos-shift and keep your psychic powers).

 

[krios41]

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Well, i disagree with that statement then.
Magic defies the laws of physics, period.
I snap with my fingers,a nd out of nothingnes a tank apears, that's magic yea, because i created a thing from literaly nothing.

 

[Velorian]

Well, i disagree with that statement then.
Magic defies the laws of physics, period.
I snap with my fingers,a nd out of nothingnes a tank apears, that's magic yea, because i created a thing from literaly nothing.

That's not what it means. It means that to the eyes of the primitive something which actually did have an explanation seems to be magic.

Perhaps an alien shows up and says he is a god. He then proceeds to snap his fingers and a tank appears. What if that tank was just teleported from his spaceship?

To a medieval age man many of our modern techs could easily be passed off as magical as well.

 

[Secret Master]

Wich is? it rings a bell, but i have forgotten. Please educate me on this matter

I see Velorian has is mostly covered:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

There is a corollary which applies to this discussion as well:

"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."

Given the way the Shroud works (based on screenshots), it might be a case of one or the other. Or, it might be a case of "the Shroud is inherently irrational and uncodifiable with no stable rules, so it might as well be subject to the whims of a tetchy god."

 

[aono]

For all we know the "spirits" of the Shroud might be withholding access to entire species when they've made a choice like large scale cybernetic implants, or perhaps it's incompatible with the Shroud itself.

That's the thing that is forgotten very often in this discussions, so I believe I should repeat myself again. Species don't do any choices as large scale cybernetic impants. It's possible that psi is based on species basis, but then it should be species trait, taken on race generation. Ethos shouldn't change an ability a species think - you're biologically/physically awaken to psi or not.
Also worth noting two more things.
First, discovering a Shroud is, if I recall it right, second phase of psi ascendancy, not the first I'm offer to allow for any ethos.
Second, as we can assume from things were revealed, Shroud spirits haven't one and base agenda - and the very example of psi ascendacy shows us a spirit who are actually try to ban psykers from entering. Then psykers just push through his block - so it is possible.

 

[aono]

Given the way the Shroud works (based on screenshots), it might be a case of one or the other. Or, it might be a case of "the Shroud is inherently irrational and uncodifiable with no stable rules, so it might as well be subject to the whims of a tetchy god."

There is a problem here - you can't actually technologize something without stable rules.

 

[Secret Master]

There is a problem here - you can't actually technologize something without stable rules.

Which would make sense in some versions of spiritualism seen in the game.

It's not being technologized. Your psychic POPs, like Miss Cleo, are not using the scientific method to understand the Shroud. They are using mumbo jumbo that does not follow stable rules of reality to do "stuff."

Given the randomness Wiz hinted at for your interactions with the Shroud, this seems thematically appropriate.

 

[krios41]

That's not what it means. It means that to the eyes of the primitive something which actually did have an explanation seems to be magic.

Perhaps an alien shows up and says he is a god. He then proceeds to snap his fingers and a tank appears. What if that tank was just teleported from his spaceship?

To a medieval age man many of our modern techs could easily be passed off as magical as well.

Well, then the wording of teh statement should be different, because the statement implies magic and 'siffeciently advanced technology' are the same, but it's not, it jsut may look like it's the same >.>
ah well, enough of that now before i completly de-rail this thread

 

[Rubidium]

There is a problem here - you can't actually technologize something without stable rules.

Sure you can. Art doesn't have stable rules, but that doesn't stop me from filming propaganda pieces to encourage morale, or advertisements to convince people to buy from Brand X instead of Brand Y. And yes, advertisements sometimes fail, or people laugh at propaganda instead of being inspired by it, but that doesn't change that it has been effectively technologized from a game standpoint.

Think of psionics as more of an art than a science, and it makes more sense. Whether that's due to the nature of the explicitly "supernatural" psi or the Shroud entities behind it, doesn't matter.

 

[aono]

It's not being technologized. Your psychic POPs, like Miss Cleo, are not using the scientific method to understand the Shroud. They are using mumbo jumbo that does not follow stable rules of reality to do "stuff."

If their mumbo jumbo give stable result (let's say "creating force field around spaceships" - psionic shields shown in stream) - it's technologizing. Technology is highly predating sicentific method or actual understanding - first people who used seafaring actually hadn't any clue about Archimed law or how it's works, they just noticed wooden rafts don't sink, as a rule.
There is countless (literally) things that can happen when psychic POP tries, for example, to read somebody's mind, so there are two possibilities:
1. They tries to read a mind and it's works. Why? Another question, but if it happens stable, the very first sentence in this point is a description of technology.
2. They tries to read a mind and SOMETHING happens. Mind has been read. A head of psychic exploded. A head of victim exploded. Some star dims. Planet became marshmallow. All of this in same time.
Even Warhammer psy is technologized (and humans don't know HOW it works) to the extent it can stable used in war.

Art doesn't have stable rules, but that doesn't stop me from filming propaganda pieces to encourage morale, or advertisements to convince people to buy from Brand X instead of Brand Y.

The very idea behind propaganda or advertisements is that human behaiviour in every culture HAS stable rules (known or not-known). You can actually predict how will people act and manipulate them.

 

[Velorian]

Well, then the wording of teh statement should be different, because the statement implies magic and 'siffeciently advanced technology' are the same, but it's not, it jsut may look like it's the same >.>
ah well, enough of that now before i completly de-rail this thread

It's just a fancy way of saying, exaggeration to prove a point. When it says "are" the same, it basically means appears the same.

Anyway assuming we approve of it as "real" magic, as in he does some specific hand-gestures and mumbles some barely meaningful phrases while thinking of something specific (I believe that's how AD&D spells work), then that also CAN be science.

If you can record and repeat the results then it's a confirmed phenomenon, it's just beyond current comprehension. You can still study it scientifically and gradually theorize about out how it works.

Very likely some type of entity (god) somewhere understands the underlying mechanic, or at least there is a mechanic that CAN be understood, given sufficient knowledge and overview.

Very likely the scientific explanation of psionics in the Stellaris universe is that beings residing in the Shroud interfered with our plane of existence. All experiments to prove that fact relies on either those beings being predictable (doesn't fit sentient beings) or fellow mortals obtaining consistent ability to do psionic things.

So either you must study aliens doing it, or your species must develop an early version of it by themselves. Out of gameplay reasons you can't just copy aliens though, same reason as you can't switch between warp, hyper and worm drives.

Either way what they do violates all the known laws of physics, because it is relying on whatever laws of physics resides in the Shroud dimension. So it'll seem like magic until thoroughly studied, especially as it seems unpredictable and nonsensical.

 

[aono]

All experiments to prove that fact relies on either those beings being predictable (doesn't fit sentient beings) or fellow mortals obtaining consistent ability to do psionic things.

Why? Sentient beings (if we can use humans as an example) are predictable to some extent, it's kind of empirical fact. I can predict how my friend will react to my words, for example, and I'm not ready to deny his sentience because this.
The very possibility of civilization based on the fact that humans are predictable.

 

[Velorian]

Why? Sentient beings (if we can use humans as an example) are predictable to some extent, it's kind of empirical fact. I can predict how my friend will react to my words, for example, and I'm not ready to deny his sentience because this.
The very possibility of civilization based on the fact that humans are predictable.

Who says the Shroud entities have a civilization? Or that they are remotely sensical from a human perspective?

The reason I figured their sentience could screw with the results is if early practitioners of psionic "magic/miracles" are relying on spirits to fill in the details (advanced practitioners can do it on their own). That means they can usually repeat their miracles, but what if that spirit doesn't want to be observed? Then scientists will experience that these so-called psychics consistently fails when we attempt to record or otherwise study their talents.

If they only appear to people willing to believe in them whether there's proof or not, then scientifically inclined individuals will tend to regard those people as deluded. Even if there actually really, truly, is a spirit talking to them.

 

[Secret Master]

If their mumbo jumbo give stable result (let's say "creating force field around spaceships" - psionic shields shown in stream) - it's technologizing.

But since it's mumbo jumbo and not consistent and not in line with the scientific method, it doesn't give a stable result because there is no stable result to be had. Yes, that's not how reality actually works, but we're dealing with a fictional universe here.

Here's an example:

Day 1: In order to contact the Shroud, Miss Cleo burns the intestines of a chicken while concentrating on her picture of Jimmy Carter. She successfully contacts the Shroud and talks to Elvis.

Day 2: In order to contact the Shroud, Miss Cleo draws a pentagram in her own blood and sacrifices a small child while concentrating on her dream catcher. She successfully contacts the Shroud and talks to Elvis.

Day 3: In order to contact the Shroud, Miss Cleo draws a pentagram in her own blood and sacrifices a small child while concentrating on her dream catcher. Nothing happens.

Day 4: In order to contact the Shroud, Harry Potter prays the Rosary while thinking about Ron Weasely. He successfully contacts the Shroud and talks to Elvis.

When asked why these things happened, Gandalf said, "The Shroud does not follow stable rules. The reality and it's basic concepts of things like physics and chemistry are not just different from our own, but they change on a daily basis. They may even be changing based on the whim of some entity that lives there. This is why the White Council cannot guarantee results."

Even Warhammer psy is technologized (and humans don't know HOW it works) to the extent it can stable used in war.

Except that the Warp is not stable and is basically a reality that changes based on the whims of the Chaos gods.

The Empire might be able to use psykers consistently, but let's not pretend that the realms of Chaos (or even their servants) obey consistent rules governing basic things like "gravity is constant" or "bacteria reproduce at observable and predictable rates."