Psionic in Utopia

[BlackUmbrellas]

The question is how difficuld is it to switch your empire ethic

It works under similar rules to changing your government- a huge chunk of Influence and then, IIRC, a cooldown period of 10 years? But you need a Faction of the appropriate Ethos first, and the process is an inexact science (you don't get to pick which Ethos is replaced unless you're embracing an opposed one).

 

[Xoatl]

It works under similar rules to changing your government- a huge chunk of Influence and then, IIRC, a cooldown period of 10 years? But you need a Faction of the appropriate Ethos first, and the process is an inexact science (you don't get to pick which Ethos is replaced unless you're embracing an opposed one).

We'll find out exactly how empires change ethics in next week's dev diary.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

We'll find out exactly how empires change ethics in next week's dev diary.

We were already shown, for the most part.

 

[Xoatl]

We were already shown, for the most part.

That's all for today! Next week we'll be coming back to Factions and how you can use them to change your Empire Ethics. We'll also be talking about Indoctrination. See you then!

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

[the thing Wiz said]

Which is lovely, but again, we've already been shown this.

There was a screenshot a little while back- I can't remember if it was a twitter teaser or in direct reply to a question- from which I'm pulling everything I've been saying. It specifically showed off how Factions will have an "embrace" option with specific costs and cooldowns, and we were given clarification that the Ethos replaced will be random.

 

[Xoatl]

Which is lovely, but again, we've already been shown this.

There was a screenshot a little while back- I can't remember if it was a twitter teaser or in direct reply to a question- from which I'm pulling everything I've been saying. It specifically showed off how Factions will have an "embrace" option with specific costs and cooldowns, and we were given clarification that the Ethos replaced will be random.

Boy you really like make assumptions. We saw the factions screen, nothing more, nothing less. Yes we saw an embrace button, what happens when you click it, how other factions and POPs will react, how embracing a faction will start shifting other POPs ethos and factions. All this stuff and more details about it is unknown.

I wish I had your confidence on things that have no evidence.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Boy you really like make assumptions. We saw the factions screen, nothing more, nothing less. Yes we saw an embrace button, what happens when you click it, how other factions and POPs will react, how embracing a faction will start shifting other POPs ethos and factions. All this stuff and more details about it is unknown.

I wish I had your confidence on things that have no evidence.

I'm not summoning this out of the aether- this is all stuff Wiz either showed us or explained in later comments. I just don't have the time to track it down.

Like, more details are certainly appreciated- but we already know the core mechanic through which you change your empire-level Ethos.

 

[FuzzyLogic]

Problem with the Vatican and pretty much any theocracy in history is that they had inquisitions and burned witches. Our religions are actively anti-psionics, whereas the Jedi's religion is very much pro-psionics.

My point exactly! Throughout history, humans have approached the divine (and the paranormal) from many different angles. For some, religion was merely a set of immutable rules that bind the community together, or simple guidelines to live a good and fulfilling life. For others, it is a gateway to a reality that exists outside the observable universe, or the means to bend otherworldly powers to their own will. The Spiritualist ethos, as it stands now, accurately describes folks like Allatolah Khomeini, Theresa of Calcutta, Robert Anton Wilson, Uri Geller and Fray Tomás de Torquemada, despite the huge ideological differences between them. And, in the end, everyone from your DMT-tripping space hippies to your DEUS VULT! screaming power-armored crusaders are going to be getting their own Psionic Warriors and jump drives.

However, after thoroughly reading the latest dev diary, I see it's perfectly possible for a spiritualist empire to choose not to go down the Psionic path, so kudos on the devs for that one.

 

[TheWalkingLost]

As long as every ethos gets equally awesome shticks, I think it's great.

 

[Rubidium]

Note that psionics in Utopia are not just "hey, we've found some real psychics, pretty cool, no?"

There is an active spiritual realm ("the Shroud") populated with entities with clear goals. It's quite conceivable that they are the ones spreading psychic powers to your populace, not your species magically developing it on their own. It's certainly reasonable that the denizens of the Shroud might only unlock these powers for species with a spiritual mindset, either because they are more accepting of it and thus easier to unlock, or because they seem easier to manipulate with a few minor psychic powers (cough...Chaos cults...cough).

Sure, once the initial breakthrough is made, psionics would be studied like any other science, but that's represented by the ability to shift away once you have started the process. You could easily imagine your once-spiritual nation now incorporating their psionic powers into their normal material world as they lose faith (think of e.g. the Fire Nation and to a lesser extent the Earth Nation in Avatar; "bending" is clearly spiritual in nature, and yet we see it being used mundanely all the times for things such as power plants and public transport). Still, it's the spiritual past that allowed them to first pierce the veil.

 

[aono]

In fact they have that back and forth we're having now where spiritualists (Like the soul hunter) arrive at the station, do their magic, and the doctor scoffs at it the whole time.

Yeah. Doctor also scoffs actually working tech because he don't know how it's works. Yup, Franklin is very stubborn and stupid here, he don't believe that there is something he don't know. And sorry, are you trying to say that Lita Alexander in pilot and Talia Winters, or, let's say, Bester (as I recall Bester appeared before Soul Hunter?..) - spiritualists?
Yeah, Earth science in B5 don't believe in souls. They're materialistcs, sure. But Psi Corps exists.
Once more, I'm not trying to say that you can't be spiritualistic psionic. I'm trying to say you can be non-spiritualistic psionic.

One focuses on the spirit, through faith, religion, scientific method, drug use etc, it doesn't matter, these individuals view the spirit as top priority. Materialists on the other hand view the physical as the most vital part of their lives.

So take Warhammer noble, bad noble. He never take a dime for his spirit, never focused on it. He just want to hoard his riches and kill his enemies.
He can be awakened as a psyker. Yeah, he will be connected to spiritual realm, but he can just ignore it.

One focuses on the spirit, through faith, religion, scientific method, drug use etc, it doesn't matter, these individuals view the spirit as top priority. Materialists on the other hand view the physical as the most vital part of their lives.

Is teleikinesis physical? It is actually moving things around. Things are moving or not, if they're not moving, it's not telekinesis. If Jedi moves a stone, it's physical effect.
Is psi-teleportation physical? It's actually moving from one to another place. In "Stars in my destination" it blown apart transportation industry - because nobody give a thing about "focusing in spirit", everybody was intrested in "how can we practically use it?".
Is ESP less materialistic that mathematical modeling?
Why wave function collapse is physical enough to be "in materialist purvey", and fenomena that allow you to actually throw a stone to your enemy is not?

Keep in mind that empire ethics are not set in stone in utopia. You can change them. So to go psi you have to be spiritualist for a very brief moment to take the perk. This could indeed lead to fanatic materialists with psi powers.

*sigh*
Yes, that's exactly what I'm keeping in mind. If a thing is "you can just swap to spiritualists, take psi and swap another way!", what about "Wiz doctrine" about unique playstyles to different ethoses?
That's why I believe it should be exactly opposite way. You can be materialistic society that acknowleged that they're psions, and IT brings a big boost to their spirituality. It's guys who came out and say - you see, our ancient believes about teleology, idealism and souls were correct! We can do astonishing things with our minds! And materialists will answer - "no, no, it's just waves in your brain!".

It's certainly reasonable that the denizens of the Shroud might only unlock these powers for species with a spiritual mindset, either because they are more accepting of it and thus easier to unlock, or because they seem easier to manipulate with a few minor psychic powers (cough...Chaos cults...cough).

Species don't have mindsets in Stellaris. Governments and individual pops do.
And it's not government that has psi ascension happened, right?

 

[Arkangilos]

Guys, it's pointless debating this with him. We continuously pointed out the flaws in his arguments, where his views on the sources are wrong, etc. He will literally just keep repeating the same thing. It's better to debate some of the other people and/or accept that that this is the direction the game is going in.

I for one support the spiritualist only mechanic, but do think that *if* it is changed, it should cause a huge shift towards spiritualism in your empire. One thing is clear, in nearly all the sci-fi examples we have, even if they start if Materialist, they all make a shift.

Star Wars? Han was definitely a Materialist at first, but shifted later. The Empire, despite being run by a force user, was Materialist and even the citizens outright rejected the force. (The guy who got choked by Vader was even like, "haha, your religion is obsolete. Your powers are nothing compared to this planet destroying weapon!"). But every single force user was spiritualist. Even the non-Jedi and non-sith.

B5? They (the human psi-corp) openly tried to increase their power to ascend to godhood. The other species were all spiritualist as well.

Warhammer? Well considering the widespread worship of Psykers, the chaos gods, etc., we don't really need to go into it. But even that "noble" example, there isn't a single actual example of someone not being spiritualist when a Psyker, from any species.

I think its clear that it's a matter of, "do we spend our time researching this planet destroying weapon that everyone can use? Or do we spend all of those resources on something tiny and rare?"

Spiritualism is more mental based.
Materialism is more physical based.

As an aside, you can say, "it's just waves in your brains" and still be a spiritualist.

 

[aono]

I for one support the spiritualist only mechanic, but do think that *if* it is changed, it should cause a huge shift towards spiritualism in your empire. One thing is clear, in nearly all the sci-fi examples we have, even if they start if Materialist, they all make a shift.

Just in case, of course you read that that's exactly what I wrote up here?

B5? They (the human psi-corp) openly tried to increase their power to ascend to godhood. The other species were all spiritualist as well.

Nope, they don't. They ACCIDENTALLY increase Ironheart power to ascend to godhood, because they tried to create stable telekinetic. They wanted to create stable telekinetic to use him for political killing.

But every single force user was spiritualist. Even the non-Jedi and non-sith.

You do undertand that force-user isn't nessesarily a man who throw lightning?
Anakin Skywalker was a force-user when he use a Force to win races - he used precongition. Yes, he believed he just have good reaction. But he used Force, and that's why Qui-Gon believed he have a high Force - and actually take a probe. He didn't take a probe from everybody he met, right?
So you believe little Anakin was spiritualist?

Spiritualism is more mental based.

So every psychologist, sociologist, culturologist or managment theorist is a spiritualist?

 

[Kat Tsun]

So every psychologist, sociologist, culturologist or managment theorist is a spiritualist?

Psychologists, no, that can be empirically verified. Management theorists, absolutely.

Spiritualism is more mental based.
Materialism is more physical based.

It's probably more accurate to say that Spiritualist ethos are supposed to be "positivism can't explain everything" philosophy (cf. existentialism) or some other belief in metaphysical underpinnings of the universe, while Materialist ethos are more or less the opposed and believe positivism can answer all of life's questions.

So European vs. American philosophies (respectively) rather than "physical" vs. "mental".

 

[aono]

Psychologists, no, that can be empirically verified.

Force in SW or psy in Warhammer definitly could be empirically verified - it's quite simpe to empirically verify X-Wing flying up from the swamp or rampaging daemon.
Actually I can't say why it's arguing so hard when descriptions in-game make it very clear - materialists believe there is no intristic value in anything, that being is pointless beyond free agent reasoning; and that's why extrosception is the most reasonable way. Spiritualists believes there is highest order and proper meaning in everything existed, that's everything is linked, and then introspection is the most reasonalbe way.
Maybe it's so obvious for me because the very point of moderate spiritualism in-game is actually an answer to big question in russian philosophy of 19th century - "is the Sun caring for the Earth?".
Materialist answers: "no, it's gravity, speed, masses that matters, no caring, no highest order".
Spiritualist answers: "yes, the Sun is caring for the Earth, everything is linked into great pattern, and we should understand our place in it".

 

[Secret Master]

Uri Geller and Fray Tomás de Torquemada

Sounds like it's time to update the name of my EU4 cover band.

"Ladies and gentlemen! Put your hands together for tonight's headline performance! Uri Geller and the Tomas de Torquemadas!"

(I'm the drummer, obviously; Johan would be on lead vocals.)

 

[terrycloth]

I feel this makes very little sense. Psionic phenomena in Stellaris aren't tale tales or pseudoscience. They are verifiable, reproducible, documentable and possible to weaponise on a large scale. No materialist worth their salt (and/or Riggan Spice) can deny the existence of something when it has an observable effect on the universe, such as... the friendly neighbourhood Holy Guardians psi-jumping half across the galaxy and raining mind-powers on anyone who trespasses on their holy worlds.

Psionics in Stellaris is not a matter of faith. It's not subjective, it's not imaginary, it's not even that subtle - some civilisations use it to move their spaceships around! It can be observed, therefore it's science. Anyone who refuses to acknowledge the existence of something that exists is not someone who would be treated seriously in my Materialistic empire, let alone given any degree of authority on how my species should evolve.

Materialists might accept that the phenomenon exists (although even that isn't certain because of cognitive bias) but they would never be able to accept or utilize the mechanism that lets it work. The spiritualists could try to explain it but it would just sound like complete nonsense to them and they'd waste all their time trying to come up with the 'real answer'.

The only way for them to get into the proper mind-set where they could succeed at replicating the phenomenon would be to actually become spiritualists.

 

[Velorian]

Aside from gameplay deciding why psionics would be tied to spiritual ethics I like to make up "head-canon" lore to justify these things.

My thinking would be that the shroud is difficult to study because of the entities residing there, the "spirits", who interfere with instruments and make it an unreliable field of study. Aside from spiritualists tending to assume there must be something to it despite lack of substantial proof these entities might be actively sabotaging the efforts of people they don't like.

Meanwhile spiritual people are attracting or "leaking" psychic energy. This being a real thing in this universe, an energy derived from the shroud. Something about their overall mindset is simply more compatible with the shroud and their presence is condensing the background energy levels, which fits with the event that states your people awakens near-simultaneously after reaching a communal tipping point of accumulated energy.

I figure their presence "weakens the veil" like how mages do in the Dragon Age games. This means that a long-term spiritualistic people might do experiments which makes it seem something is there but a materialist might try repeating those experiments using exact same methods and get results suggesting it's wishful thinking.

 

[aono]

Materialists might accept that the phenomenon exists (although even that isn't certain because of cognitive bias) but they would never be able to accept or utilize the mechanism that lets it work.

Do the same logic works opposite way? Can spiritualists utilize the mechanism that lets robots or cybernetics works?

I figure their presence "weakens the veil" like how mages do in the Dragon Age games. This means that a long-term spiritualistic people might do experiments which makes it seem something is there but a materialist might try repeating those experiments using exact same methods and get results suggesting it's wishful thinking.

DA example is a great one. Imagine a man who goes out and throw a fireball. It's actual fireball, it's plasma ball created from nowhere, flying to a target and blowing. Because this man is weaking the veil by their very presence.
Of course, I can imagine materialist who denies "all that crap" about spirits, transcedence and so on. But will he deny a fireball?

 

[krios41]

Clarke's notion about sufficiently advanced technology and magic/miracles.

Wich is? it rings a bell, but i have forgotten. Please educate me on this matter