Psionic in Utopia

[Velorian]

So in the end they have only two possibilities. Ignore proofs about existing psi and stays materialistic (not the position that gives research bonus, and actually not very materialistic way), or stop being materialistic and embrace spiritualism. Embracing spiritualism is admitting that your previous belief was wrong... ok, let's get away from philosophical proofs - because it's polar ethoses and no game empire can be materialistic and spiritualistic at once.
Don't you agree?

Not really no. Inability to use and harness psionics in a meaningful fashion is not evidence that they are fundamentally wrong.

 

[aono]

Not really no. Inability to use and harness psionics in a meaningful fashion is not evidence that they are fundamentally wrong.

So. They can't use and harness psy BECAUSE they're fundamentally wrong, but it's not evidence they ARE fundamentally wrong?

 

[Ikael]

Regarding this whole "are psiconics a materialist or spiritual thing" debate:

- The decision to restrict psiconics to spiritualists has the same reasoning behind restricting purges to xenophobic empires despite of historic precedents of scientists embracing what used to be considered magic or democratic regimes embarking in purges: To better differenciate each ethoi and give them more flavour by creating distinct, exclusive gameplay styles for each. I, for one, agree with this design philosophy. This game needs flavour and mpore differenciation between factions, not less, and this is a good way to archieve it

- That being said, from a philosophical point of view if at some point science prooves the existence of psiquic superpowers, that might become another field of study for conventional sciences and the larger academic community, but you can be damn sure that such a discovery will steer the general public into spiritualistic tendencies, just like quantum mechanics gave a renewed impulse to new age hooey, not to mention that psiquic theirselves will most likely verge into spirituality as well considering that religious mysticism is all about enhancing and modifying consciousness and perception (ritual use of psycodelic drugs, trance states, meditation techniques, etc).

 

[Velorian]

So. They can't use and harness psy BECAUSE they're fundamentally wrong, but it's not evidence they ARE fundamentally wrong?

No, they are not wrong.

There are two planes of existence with separate laws, materialists choose to focus entirely on the one they are in and study everything within it.
Spiritualists reach into that other plane with different laws to temporarily make those laws partially apply here. Nothing learned there has any application in the real world, aside from what you get by accessing that plane and pulling it here, which is only possible if you have a certain mindset.

So materialists are not wrong about THIS plane. They may eventually have to amend the claim that there's nothing more than matter but that doesn't mean they are suddenly spiritualists..

 

[Occursus Morini]

No, they are not wrong.

There are two planes of existence with separate laws, materialists choose to focus entirely on the one they are in and study everything within it.
Spiritualists reach into that other plane with different laws to temporarily make those laws partially apply here. Nothing learned there has any application in the real world, aside from what you get by accessing that plane and pulling it here, which is only possible if you have a certain mindset.

So materialists are not wrong about THIS plane. They may eventually have to amend the claim that there's nothing more than matter but that doesn't mean they are suddenly spiritualists..

Here is where I think I will step in.

You are contradicting yourself, or at the very least being unfair and contrarian.

Since he wrote honest Materialists will have to admit to be wrong on the nature of reality itself depending on actual, observable data if anything contrary to their current paradigm shows up to be real and they cannot explicitly explain it inside the current paradigm, he devised a thought experiment, much more believable in-game : Two scientists, one Materialist, one Spiritualist, do a science conference together. Both will then make a case, in-game, about their claims about reality. As it will occur to you, in-game, only one of them can do something observable the other cannot do, and this is the Spiritualist. One must understand that at the very moment there is actual observation possible of esoteric phenomenon, they stop right there to be pure fantasy and enters the world of reality. The reason “esoteric sciences” are discredited is there is nothing observable about them ; they are more or less based on faith. Is there something as the Ethereal Plane, or the Spiritual Plane, or Philosophical Stone, or Morphogenetic Field, or whatever else of the same ? If yes, then the thought experiment tells you the following : If there is anything they CANNOT understand inside their current paradigm – materialism -, then it follows logically they are wrong. You admitted yourself when you wrote : « They may eventually have to amend the claim there’s nothing more than matter but that doesn’t mean they are suddenly spiritualists. » It is true though, it does not make them Spiritualists ; it means they cease to be Materialists IF there is anything else BUT matter. That is the point if you say there is another plane of existence since it would mean there is something else besides the Physical Plane.

The best possible outcome at this juncture is to pretend Materialists will work in-game on this phenomenon and try to find it a materialist explanation, which is highly probable, especially for Fanatic Materialist, but because of the confines of the game, they cannot and they will never be able to, UNLESS they become momentarily Spiritualists. Until then, it will be FOREVER useless to research it as a Materialist.

That is why, in-game, Spiritualists seem to be right all along ; there were always things out there beyond the Physical Plane.

It is what Aono is trying to tell you, I think.

 

[Velorian]

Here is where I think I will step in.

You are contradicting yourself, or at the very least being unfair and contrarian.

Maybe I'm souring on the discussion, but I think we may not be discussing entirely the same thing. My argument isn't that he doesn't have a valid point, but that there can be other possibilities so I figure I'm being fluid as I'm mentioning all possibilities simultaneously, hence possibly contradicting myself.

Two scientists, one Materialist, one Spiritualist, do a science conference together. Both will then make a case, in-game, about their claims about reality. As it will occur to you, in-game, only one of them can do something observable the other cannot do, and this is the Spiritualist.

Yeah, but that will only be possible once spiritualists have developed the tech, it still wasn't possible for the other one to have developed it initially.

So it would seem the spiritualists were right all along, but that doesn't have to necessarily be the case, not entirely at least.
It could well be that while spiritualists by turning inwards found something the materialists had overlooked, yet, like you said, that materialists later do develop a comprehensive materialist explanation for the phenomenon and it could be that this one is the ultimate truth after all.

Even if realizing the true nature of things still doesn't allow them to actually wield psionics. Doesn't mean they are wrong though.

 

[Arkangilos]

Here is where I think I will step in.

You are contradicting yourself, or at the very least being unfair and contrarian.

Since he wrote honest Materialists will have to admit to be wrong on the nature of reality itself depending on actual, observable data if anything contrary to their current paradigm shows up to be real and they cannot explicitly explain it inside the current paradigm, he devised a thought experiment, much more believable in-game : Two scientists, one Materialist, one Spiritualist, do a science conference together. Both will then make a case, in-game, about their claims about reality. As it will occur to you, in-game, only one of them can do something observable the other cannot do, and this is the Spiritualist. One must understand that at the very moment there is actual observation possible of esoteric phenomenon, they stop right there to be pure fantasy and enters the world of reality. The reason “esoteric sciences” are discredited is there is nothing observable about them ; they are more or less based on faith. Is there something as the Ethereal Plane, or the Spiritual Plane, or Philosophical Stone, or Morphogenetic Field, or whatever else of the same ? If yes, then the thought experiment tells you the following : If there is anything they CANNOT understand inside their current paradigm – materialism -, then it follows logically they are wrong. You admitted yourself when you wrote : « They may eventually have to amend the claim there’s nothing more than matter but that doesn’t mean they are suddenly spiritualists. » It is true though, it does not make them Spiritualists ; it means they cease to be Materialists IF there is anything else BUT matter. That is the point if you say there is another plane of existence since it would mean there is something else besides the Physical Plane.

The best possible outcome at this juncture is to pretend Materialists will work in-game on this phenomenon and try to find it a materialist explanation, which is highly probable, especially for Fanatic Materialist, but because of the confines of the game, they cannot and they will never be able to, UNLESS they become momentarily Spiritualists. Until then, it will be FOREVER useless to research it as a Materialist.

That is why, in-game, Spiritualists seem to be right all along ; there were always things out there beyond the Physical Plane.

It is what Aono is trying to tell you, I think.

But the reason the Materialist CANNOT replicate it is because it took the spiritualist scientist his whole life living as a spiritualist, practicing very specific things and reaching for some form of enlightenment. Th Materialist won't do that because he will try to do it differently. If he did replicate what the other guy did by practicing his methods, he is no longer a Materialist.

 

[Arkangilos]

Also the "religion has been purging the people who would be psi" is a bad argument because it's assuming they are all the same. Not all spiritualists will research psi tech. Not all religions killed mystics.

 

[Gyrvendal]

Problem with the Vatican and pretty much any theocracy in history is that they had inquisitions and burned witches. Our religions are actively anti-psionics, whereas the Jedi's religion is very much pro-psionics.

I loled hard at this :-D
"Vatican is anti-psionics"
Thing is, psionics don't actually exist Irl so it doesn't really make sense...

 

[Xoatl]

Thing is, psionics don't actually exist Irl

 

[Arkangilos]

But they don't really even purge that stuff. If they think your abilities ar divinely inspired, you are a saint or a miracle worker.

If they think it is inspired by the devil, then yes.

Anyways, in that case it would be a spiritualist empire that doesn't research psionics.
But if it were a pagan religion? They wouldn't go around purging them.

 

[Ikael]

Problem with the Vatican and pretty much any theocracy in history is that they had inquisitions and burned witches. Our religions are actively anti-psionics, whereas the Jedi's religion is very much pro-psionics.

I beg to disagree. The Catholic Church is probably the only religious body with a structured, systematized, active psiconic training program and division. Same thing goes for Catholic mysticism and many of the Catholic saints and their miracles.

Mysticism, and what could arguably be considered psiconics is at the very core of most of the world's religions. Heck, even the inquisition was always far more focused into political games and theological indoctrination than witch hunting per se.

 

[Xoatl]

But they don't really even purge that stuff. If they think your abilities ar divinely inspired, you are a saint or a miracle worker.

If they think it is inspired by the devil, then yes.

Anyways, in that case it would be a spiritualist empire that doesn't research psionics.
But if it were a pagan religion? They wouldn't go around purging them.

I beg to disagree. The Catholic Church is probably the only religious body with a structured, systematized, active psiconic training program and division. Same thing goes for Catholic mysticism and many of the Catholic saints and their miracles.

Mysticism, and what could arguably be considered psiconics is at the very core of most of the world's religions. Heck, even the inquisition was always far more focused into political games and theological indoctrination than witch hunting per se.

Yes, that's a fact. I guess I have a bias against Catholicism and religion so I have a tendency to believe that real uncanny instances of witchcraft were put to the stake while everything else on the internal level was the politics game. Like getting enough bishops on your side to claim they witnessed your miracle (well, someone would be doing that campaigning for you when you're dead). But you're right about exorcism, that's an indisputable element, that is shared by all spiritual systems, including shamans and witch doctors. Although the rituals to banish spirits vary. I have no contention with that.

I guess like most things that truth is somewhere in the middle.