There you go, I'm not arguing for access to the shroud or higher level psionic abilities, but i think the technology portion or unlocking for basic access should be possible.
Psionic in Utopia
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The same question @BlackUmbrellas refuses to answer - do you believe that Sith and Jedi are nice representation of spiritualistic ethos?
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Great. Are they have any thought that life is sacred, or that using sapient AI is something bad?
In the Star Wars universe no one thinks AIs are bad because that's not an explored theme. Star Wars has a huge amount of unrealistic stuff like their lasers, not everything is going to make sense.
At any rate I don't think Sith are all that spiritualistic as they believe in using the Force as a crude tool, unlike the Jedi who are more inclined to "trust in the Force" and hope things work out.
I believe that they are two good examples of the spiritualist ethos but i do not believe that they are they fully encompass the spiritualist ethos entirely but are two extremes to counter each other. A Jedi falls under the spiritualist ethos due to their belief that they are a part of a larger cosmic presence (the force) and try to achieve a oneness with the force and transcend themselves to rejoin the force. A real world example of the Jedi would be an ascetic forgoing worldly pleasure and emotion to understand themselves with the goal trying to achieve enlightenment. A great example of this is the Jedi code: "There is no Emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, there is knowledge. There is no passion, there is serenity. There is no Chaos, there is harmony. There is no death there is the force."
Sith on the other hand also represent spiritualism. The Sith believe that they are the most important beings in the universe and that through the manipulation of the cosmic presence in the universe (the force) to manipulate reality to their whims. A Sith also attempts to look internally to themselves though this is not to achieve enlightenment like the Jedi but to understand themselves more to gain more power and to better manipulate the cosmic force so that they can bend the universe more to their whims. Another real life example I would say a Sith would be compared to a practitioner of the Left hand path in modern western Escotericism or a Laveyan Satanist. Again another great example of this is the Sith code "Peace is a lie there is only passion, Trough passion i gain strength, Through strength i gain Victory, Through victory, my chains are broken, the force shall set me free."
Nah. Sith are definitely Spiritualists- they just value selfishness.
You see, I'm actually agree with you. But people here (@Arkangilos declared and @BlackUmbrellas clarified, so, I believe, he is agree) insists they're spiritualists.
That's my problem. I have different opponents with actually different positions, and when I'm arguing with one, another declaring my points "unrelated". Point I'm trying to make is you can be spiritualist and don't be obliged to count life as a sacred or AI as forbidden. You can be satanist, for example. Or Sith, that, I believe, will not refuse using AI even if Far-Far Galaxy will believe that life is sacred and AI using is forbidden (actually it would be a reason to USE AI). Or buddhist - buddhists never opposed AI, and even more - some of them actually believes that AI, who are free from human suffering so he must be a Buddha.
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Speaking as a fully paid up member of the scientific community here, but if some religious group started actually being able to read minds and teleport themselves vast distances, you can be damn sure we'd be studying it. And if it defied all attempts at scientific explanation it'd end up becoming empirical science, not knowing why something works never stops us making use of it. I mean the whole point of science is to study the universe as it is, not how you think it should be.
Paradox have locked psionics to the spiritualist ethos for gameplay reasons, end of. Trying to come up with some convoluted reasoning will fail because the decision doesnt make any sense lore wise, hence the 10 pages of arguments.
Paradox have locked psionics to the spiritualist ethos for gameplay reasons, end of. Trying to come up with some convoluted reasoning will fail because the decision doesnt make any sense lore wise, hence the 10 pages of arguments.
They don't need to fully encompass the spiritualist ethos - I just want to show that you CAN be spiritualist and don't give a dime for "being good", "sacred life" or "AI are blashemy". So thesis "every spiritualist should defy AI by ethical reasons" is bad.
I believe it was Sagan who was asked "what do you think about extraterrestrial life" and answered "I don't know". When he was asked "Well, what's your hunch?" he answered "I prefer not to think with hunches". I'm not sure I'm citing correctly, but, I believe, that was meaning.
Of course you can say Sagan was spiritualist. And Feinman, who actually was very intrested in introspection, consciousness and ESP research was spiritualist. But then I'm asking - who isn't spiritualist but cartoon "stupid scientist" who demands to show him God's beard?
The whole point is that non-Spiritualists do not create societies conducive to the emergence of Psionic abilities. Not that Psionics can't be researched or developed through science- they clearly can be, that's what the whole Ascension Path is about- but that they don't really emerge on the scale where they can be researched except within certain societies.
Because it proves that the 'soul' is a myth. They know everything last little detail that goes into the construction of a synthetic person, so there's no room for the supernatural to be involved in personhood. If people do have 'souls' then they aren't responsible for sapience or consciousness, they're just some weird otherdimensional appendix that you can use to get psychic powers at the cost of going crazy.
It's not what they see the force as. All societies use such things as tools.
It's how they use it. It's about emotions, the Jedi use "positive" emotions such as the feeling of peace, clarity, and compassion.
The Sith use "negative" emotions, such as Hate, anger, passion, lust, and greed.
Both require soul searching.
To the Jedi, enlightenment means becoming one with the force.
To the Sith enlightenment means absolute freedom. Many Sith actually try to become force ghosts, and use physical objects to bend the force to their will.
Just look at the two codes. They have spiritualist written all over them.
Again, I don't see why science keeps coming up in this. It isn't about science. It is about a philosophical way of life. Spiritualists have scientists, materialists have scientists. Spiritualist scientists spend more time on personal internal introspection, self discovery, etc., materialists spend more time on external discovery.
As a Materialist scientist, if you found out that another group of people figured out how to use psi abilities, and you also happened to have the gene, and the only way to replicate the results was to follow the spiritualist life style, would you remain a Materialist, or would you become a spiritualist?
Sorry Quark! I didn't see what you said when I typed this!
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I think it may be because the spiritualism ethic pulls double duty. It covers both religious/mystic approaches and particularly esoteric forms of extra-dimensional sciences.
So psionics ends up associated with the mystic aspect because of its connection to the shroud -- another dimension and thus the extra-dimensional science portion.
Likewise, Materialism covers both the study of the physical universe, and the opposition to religion.
If psionics works through souls, it's not "myths" and materialist who created soulless robot just created complicated mechanical toy. Hurray for him.
If psionics don't works through souls, it can be mythic, but:
1. It means materialists should be able to learn psi.
2. It means spiritualists are plain wrong, and it's as bad as materialists plain wrong.
Please. Societies isn't monolithic. Even in Stellaris societies isn't monolithic. There is absolutely no reason for materialistic empire NOT to have "obscure Bulletproof Monk monasteries", neibourghood (or refuge, or migrant) spiritualistic (and even psionic) pops or having genetic pool activated by any non-related reason.
Also, as we're speaking about spiritual advance and introspection - it's quite personal achievement, right? Rough calculation will gave us that one Human pop is something, well, about billion of people? How many spiritualists you need to have emergence of psionic abilities?
That's why I'm recalling that event in the game. It's definitly something can happen in materialistic empire with some spiritualists within. Or even without spiritualists - if we admit that materialists are allowed to have self-reflection.
Actually I never used this argument, because it's plain wrong. In-game Psionic Ascension (and any other ascension) isn't researched or developed through science - as far as we know it's developed through, well, "being here long enough". It's Ascension Perks, and Ascension Perks isn't tied with science.
Actually, if you think about it, spiritualist empire on start should be good drop to materialistic ascension - you take spiritualists, so you have a lot of unity (until developers change ethos bonuses, and, I believe, we all here supposed they don't) to take two tradition trees ASAP. Then you convert into materialists and take machine ascendancy.
Lifestyle or faith and values? Lifestyle as it is means nothing.
Also, whose lifestyle a person should replicate? Buddhists, Jedi, Sith, Christians, Psi Corps, AAT have quite different views, even if every one of them (let's take it) spiritualists.
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Please, tell it @BlackUmbrellas. He actually declare spiritualism "a belief system that supports and prioritizes deep introspection and a belief that perception begets reality".
Belief system isn't lifestyle.
That's a lifestyle! BlackUmbrella and I are on the same page! I'm going back to my original approach and just ignoring you, I mean you can't even understand how belief system and lifestyle are the same.
Materialism is a belief system. It's also a lifestyle.
Spiritualism is a belief system. It's also a lifestyle. Holy crap.
Every ethos is a belief system, and all of those determine your way of life. Jedi are pacifist spiritualist, Sith are militarist spiritualist.
Materialism is a belief system. It's also a lifestyle.
Spiritualism is a belief system. It's also a lifestyle. Holy crap.
Every ethos is a belief system, and all of those determine your way of life. Jedi are pacifist spiritualist, Sith are militarist spiritualist.
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In the end, you can call yourself whatever you want, that doesn't make you whatever you say you are. Your actions make you that.