Psionic in Utopia

[aono]

TL: DR: Please don't lock psionics (and, I believe, cyborgization and biomodification) to one ethos wholly.

Well, I believe I better sum my thoughts here, not spamming dev diary post.
In short, in Utopia being psionics is bound to spiritualists - you should take a perk to unlock psi path, and said perk is opened only for spiritualists. Truth to be said, I believe it's not the best solution.

1st reason category is fluff, of course. In nearly every sci-fi franchise I know being psionic isn't locked to some spiritual person, you don't need to find a divine-based transcendence to achieve it (that's why it isn't space magic!). I believe Stellaris universe is kind of mesh of classical sci-fi (I'm not trying to say it's bad! it's awesome!). So let me show some examples.

Spoiler: Examples

B5. Actually one of the best examples of unspiritual psi at all - you must try very hard to put Bester and Psi Corps into spiritual aestetics. They're not clerics or philisophers, they're people with materialistic agenda - they want power and resourses, not union with divine. They created god-level entity, because telekinesis allow to kill without any evidence. And with Psi Corps building B5 will be first thing every person who saw series will remember.
Star Wars. Actual psionic force is granted by, as you can select canon, actually existed force field or symbiotic microbes. But anyway, you're not enlighten yourself into force user, you're one or not.
Warhammer. It's kind of tricky, because actually nearly any human character actually shown in game is spiritual - no matter is he actually psyker or not. I mean, he is religious, and he definitly believe the world have some grand reason and order (I actually think it's defining feature of spiritualism, in-game and quite in-real-life). But by fluff we have there is a fact - anybody who have psyonic potential can be psyker, no matter what're his own thoughts about it. He can be atheistic and materialistic (and heretic... or Emperor himself), but psy potential would be here.
Stargate - well, Ancients looks like spiritual people, five's up, and looks like some kind of philisophical training is required to get ascension. But you don't have to be somebody spiritual just to get telepathy or telekinesis.

Actually if you look into old-fascioned sci-fi, it's even brighter.
StarTrek - everybody who survived moving through Galactic Barrier takes Ascension (and bad, bad attitude). Gods and demons actually are powerful people who have mind powers and nasty habits, no some "higher people". The best example of higher plane creature is Q, and Q Continuum is technological-, not spiritual-based. Vulcans are spiritual, but mind meld ability isn't connected to their spirituality, it's physical. Betazoids aren't spiritual as well - and it can be even said when their telepathic abilities hidden.
Azimov's Foundation says that, hillariously here, you should be rational and non-spiritual to be psionic - it's a technique that demands full control to your mind (and some inborn abilities).
'Doc' Smith Lensman Saga defines that psi abilities are rare gift; and one of most powerful psychic race (Eddore) is quite an essence of materialistic world look.
I can continue, but I believe you got my point.

Spoiler: Gameplay

So, there is no fluff requirements for psionics in classical sci-fi that requires psionic be hard-locked into Spiritualist ethics to start with. But there is also gameplay problems - as Wiz himself said, "Distinct ethics that have their own unique playstyles." That's a totaly valid, very important point (sorry my arrogance I'm speaking about developer option like that).
But I'm not believe it's an issue here.
Thing is, in Utopia you can change your empire ethos. So, if I got it right, it should be quite viable to play around hard-lined block ("only spiritualists can take this!") - you take spiritualist ethics, takes a perk, gain it's benefits and change around again. Of course, one can just block using psi when you're non-spiritualist, but it looks kinda silly ("you had psi potential day ago, but after military coup this potential just vanished!"). Also in global mind... If you can't always fully control your pops ethics change (and by stream I got that idea, and that's actually great, please don't change it!), you can find yourself in a situation when your empire build around unique playstyle, and situation builded quite opposite way. I firmly believe unique playstyle to that you need to pay, should be a boon, not a penalty. If such a bonuses can be retained through changing ethos, all blocks became hillariously unnesessary.

Spoiler: Idea

So what's my idea? I believe you shouldn't block entry ascension perks (there is two of them for ethic-based takes - entry and finisher) to your ethos, but set a taken perk as a great ethic boost for your population. If you taken first level Psi perk as a spiritualist - hurray, such a thing will improve your empire ethic unity. But if you're not spiritualist, you would get a big drift into Spiritualist - and until you can make your spiritualists in empire happy, you'll be in problem. And you should be a spiritualist to take second step. At least I believe it's the very idea beyond faction system - that you need to balance your politics. So to get full benefits from some playstyle you should to have such ethic, but without it you can get "teaser", to check if it looks good in your current playstyle. Yeah, that mean you can have partially cyborized biomodded psion (who said "Space Marine Librarian"?!), but with this came with drawbacks - you'll have some powerful factions, and two of them are dislike you for prefering third. Maybe it's even possible to create Ascension Wars, when your population actually starting fight each other to find whose path is right!

Spoiler: Rationalization

Why I believe it's good idea?
Well. First of all, I believe it's good for gameplay. I think if we have a mechanism (and we will have in Utopia, hurray!) that will tune our empire onto our playstyle, why not? I hate solid blocks, such as "hey if you're xenophile you can't do anything at all with primitives, and to hell you're also militaristic and materialistic". Let me do something with such a sphere, not just say "hey, there is a big sphere for you, but it just locked for you entirely, because you taken a bad ethic in the start". Also I don't actually want to meet a situation when I need to play through half a game just to say "ok, I came to the point my playstyle opens fully, and it's meh for me". Also as I haven't full control for situation in-game, I think it's fair to let player change his playstyle dynamically, not select one from the very beginning and use it until the very end.
Secondly (and more important for me personally), I believe it's better for game stories. In a current system you can't actually have B5 situation with psions meeting distrust. You can't have a story with development of psi changing your society.

 

[Secret Master]

Before getting into this, it's important to remind ourselves of Clarke's notion about sufficiently advanced technology and magic/miracles.

B5. Actually one of the best examples of unspiritual psi at all - you must try very hard to put Bester and Psi Corps into spiritual aestetics. They're not clerics or philisophers, they're people with materialistic agenda - they want power and resourses, not union with divine. They created god-level entity, because telekinesis allow to kill without any evidence. And with Psi Corps building B5 will be first thing every person who saw series will remember.

You are assuming the spiritualist equals cleric or philosopher. Do you know how many real philosophers here on Earth espouse a materialistic conception of reality in their epistemology? Spiritualist doesn't have to mean "dogmatic and stupid religious person" or "drum circling hippy who believes in crystals."

And let's not forget that Babylon 5 has plenty of spiritual elements to it. Heck, Jason Ironheart (a telepath) ascended into an energy being in one episode after the Psi Corps tried to apprehend him. Given the lore of the show, he basically turned into the same kind of semi-mystical entity that Vorlons or Shadows were. It makes little sense from a materialistic viewpoint.

Star Wars. Actual psionic force is granted by, as you can select canon, actually existed force field or symbiotic microbes. But anyway, you're not enlighten yourself into force user, you're one or not.

Even if you are willing to go with midichlorians as the material basis of the force, the spiritual aspects of most philosophies of the Force are hard to deny. All of the canon (and non-canon) material I've encountered emphasize how the Force is tied to spiritual concepts. And while a person may or may not have access to the Force, a person requires training and understanding to use it properly, including quite a bit of training that has nothing to do with lightsabers or blasters.

Let's not forget Yoda's words, either: "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." If that isn't a firm rejection of materialism, I don't know what is.

Warhammer. It's kind of tricky, because actually nearly any human character actually shown in game is spiritual - no matter is he actually psyker or not. I mean, he is religious, and he definitly believe the world have some grand reason and order (I actually think it's defining feature of spiritualism, in-game and quite in-real-life). But by fluff we have there is a fact - anybody who have psyonic potential can be psyker, no matter what're his own thoughts about it. He can be atheistic and materialistic (and heretic... or Emperor himself), but psy potential would be here.

Given how the Warp works, I find it weird that you want to put Warhammer 40k in the "psionics are not spiritual" camp. That does not even begin to address weird things like the Orks and their ability to mold and shape technology just because they think it should work.

So, I would say there is ample precedent for psionics having a spiritual dimension. That's not the only way to work it in science fiction, but let's not pretend that psioncs is never tied to spiritual stuff. It just seems like they want it tied to spiritual stuff in this particular universe.

 

[aono]

Let me clarify. It's just kind of big argue just about it in dev dairy thread, but...
First of all, I kind of have idea about world philosophy, but in Stellaris (I'm quite sure in it), spiritualism actually is quite tied with religion. By description in-game it's a mix of idealism and teleology, concepts quite linked with world religions. Their governments are theocracies. They had a basic urge to find something beyond mere reality, some highest meaning. And in current culture this concepts are quite actually linked with "spiritualism", even if it's actually don't include speaking with the dead. We speak about spiritual power and kinda opposite it to material factors, for example. I prefer to stick here, because another way we will be lost in disput "what's the difference between spiritualists and materialists".
Secondly, I believe you don't exactly get what I did try to show with examples. Of course, a lot of sci-fi settings speaks about spiritual realm and so on. But should you be ethically attuned to it to use it? Look into Star Wars - is Luke, who use Force from 4th Episode, really deeply attuned with some kind of spiritual philosophy? Is Anakin on Tatooin (who definitly used Force to have his reaction for racing - and Jedi who check him actually knew answer already) - is he some kind of mystic, can we actually name him spiritual man?
You recalling Jason Ironheart (who wasn't telepath, he was telekinetic in-cadre btw) - and of course he became energy-based life-form. I recalling him too - he is mentioned "god-level entity" - but he was created by practical and non-mystical humans who just wanted to have good covert weapon, and he just don't understands what's really happening to him!
So it's the very point of my thought here - yeah, there CAN BE spiritual dimension for psions, but all my examples shows that you don't obliged to be "spiritual" (anything it means) in named franchises to touch and use it.

We're speaking about ethos here, in-game ethos. Something that defines attitude some men gives to some topics. How do they prefer their life be organized? What do they think about wars, politics, technologies? It's something you can educate them (Reeducation Campaign Edict) - but you can't just educate Ironheart or Talia Winters or Lita Alexander. You can give them some attitude to something, but you can't give them psi.
Same for Warhammer - of course, Warp isn't material. But you don't obliged to even believe in Immaterial to use it's power.

 

[Promethian]

So reading the dev diary. It says psi is locked to spiritualist in the non-dlc version of the game. If you have the dlc then psi is locked behind the ascension instead. The ascension won't be spiritualist locked.

 

[Lady Lacroix]

Let me clarify. It's just kind of big argue just about it in dev dairy thread, but...
First of all, I kind of have idea about world philosophy, but in Stellaris (I'm quite sure in it), spiritualism actually is quite tied with religion. By description in-game it's a mix of idealism and teleology, concepts quite linked with world religions. Their governments are theocracies. They had a basic urge to find something beyond mere reality, some highest meaning. And in current culture this concepts are quite actually linked with "spiritualism", even if it's actually don't include speaking with the dead. We speak about spiritual power and kinda opposite it to material factors, for example. I prefer to stick here, because another way we will be lost in disput "what's the difference between spiritualists and materialists".
Secondly, I believe you don't exactly get what I did try to show with examples. Of course, a lot of sci-fi settings speaks about spiritual realm and so on. But should you be ethically attuned to it to use it? Look into Star Wars - is Luke, who use Force from 4th Episode, really deeply attuned with some kind of spiritual philosophy? Is Anakin on Tatooin (who definitly used Force to have his reaction for racing - and Jedi who check him actually knew answer already) - is he some kind of mystic, can we actually name him spiritual man?
You recalling Jason Ironheart (who wasn't telepath, he was telekinetic in-cadre btw) - and of course he became energy-based life-form. I recalling him too - he is mentioned "god-level entity" - but he was created by practical and non-mystical humans who just wanted to have good covert weapon, and he just don't understands what's really happening to him!
So it's the very point of my thought here - yeah, there CAN BE spiritual dimension for psions, but all my examples shows that you don't obliged to be "spiritual" (anything it means) in named franchises to touch and use it.

We're speaking about ethos here, in-game ethos. Something that defines attitude some men gives to some topics. How do they prefer their life be organized? What do they think about wars, politics, technologies? It's something you can educate them (Reeducation Campaign Edict) - but you can't just educate Ironheart or Talia Winters or Lita Alexander. You can give them some attitude to something, but you can't give them psi.
Same for Warhammer - of course, Warp isn't material. But you don't obliged to even believe in Immaterial to use it's power.

At the end of the day, all psionics in any setting ultimately comes down to something beyond physical possibility. What are the fundamental laws of physics that govern the effects of biotic powers in Mass Effect again? The closest you get is the handwavium "Element Zero" but this still doesn't address the fundamental hows and whys of telekinesis being even physically possible in the context of a universe that is otherwise exactly like our own.

So really, saying "Midichloriens did it" is nothing more than a variant of the 'turtles all the way down' dilemma. You might as well say "The force comes from god." for all the difference it makes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

Thus are Psionics (at their core) an outright rejection of materialist thought. They transcend physical possibility and our understanding of the mechanics and mathmatics which govern our universe and have more in common with biblical miracles than they do a universal law.

 

[Hapchazzard]

I'm personally fine with psionics being exclusive to spiritualists(and machine ascendancy almost certainly being exclusive to materialists). It makes the spiritualist-materialist dichotomy actually quite meaningful in terms of game mechanics. I wholeheartedly support making the current ethics distinct from each other as much as possible. My only nitpick is that non-spiritualist and non-materialist empires are effectively stuck with the biological path, and although it sounds quite cool as well, it would be nice if there was a bigger selection of paths down the line.

 

[aono]

If you have the dlc then psi is locked behind the ascension instead. The ascension won't be spiritualist locked.

It's the very point - it is. To take this ascension perks you HAVE to be spiritualist.

The only difference is that psionics can now only be researched by Spiritualist empires, though it is entirely possible for an empire that does not start out as Spiritualist to acquire psionics by shifting their empire ethics to Spiritualist over the course of the game, and once you start down the Psionic path it is possible to continue along it even if you stop being Spiritualist. This Spiritualist requirement applies whether or not you own Utopia.

Also in discussion later Wiz make it clear that psionic tied to spiritualist ethic is part of idea that every ethic should have it's own unique playstyle.
I'd love to see I'm wrong, but now I can't see anything to prove it.

At the end of the day, all psionics in any setting ultimately comes down to something beyond physical possibility.

It's possible. I'm not sure it's actually reasonable to demand from physics in 2183 to be same with our current physics, and from game to be textbook about physics in 2183. As my friend love to say, "well, between me and Karpyshin nobody knows physics of mass effect, so it's not a place for show off."
But question is - should you have some definite ethic to use biotics in ME?

I'm personally fine with psionics being exclusive to spiritualists(and machine ascendancy almost certainly being exclusive to materialists).

I'm ok with psionic ascendacy tied to Spiritualists. But entry point, I believe, should be aviable to anyone - and it should throw your empire into Spiritualism.

Or not, by the way. It's about

I wholeheartedly support making the current ethics distinct from each other as much as possible.

You see, my problem with it, if I think about it, is that all that races exists in one universe. Yeah, of course, serious reseachers will be just ignore Force in Far-Far Away Galaxy. When your enemy just blows your ships with their minds, of course, you will never be intrested how do they do it.
I mean, if you say "psi is actually exists" and ban one ethic to it because they don't believe in it (not because they believe it's not useful or have better alternative), you just says that said ethic is basically stupid.

 

[LordMagus]

Not about realism or logic. Diverse playstyles should be encouraged with unique pros, so i don't just go fanatic individualist/materialist intelligent space owls every match.

 

[aono]

Diverse playstyles would be encouraged, so i don't just got fanatic individualist/materialist intelligent space owls every match.

But it's not a point here.
You see, if you like to play fanatic individualist/materialist intelligent space owls, you have some playstyle linked to fanatic individualist and materialist. So if you get a candy to empower your playstyle (say cyborgization), you'll stick into that, so your playstyle will not change. And if you WANT to try another playstyles, you don't need a candy (even if having candy is always good). Right?
Idea behind locking some ascensions to one ethic isn't about diversification playstyles. It's about making different playstyles different. "Distinct ethics that have their own unique playstyles." As I said it's actually nice idea. But it's... well, by very definition spiritualist playstyle will be the same with three different players - they had that unique spiritualist playstyle that can't be deviated.
I'm actually offering to make a ways to play spiritualist empire more diverse - "you can play spiritualists this, that, or that way", with a one cyborg trait and two psionic, with one psionic and one cyborg, or maybe with one cyborg and zero psionic, using other spiritualist features to compensate a weakness.

 

[FuzzyLogic]

Well, I've got my own reasons for being for and against locking Psionics away from the conventional tech tree.

Reason for it is, as others have already stated, diversity. Having psi technologies paired with the Spiritualist ethos resulted in all Spiritualist empires always getting it at some point or another. In the end, no matter if you were playing the Vatican States (which didn't have any superpowers that I'm aware of) or the Jedi Council, you always ended up stacked with Psionic armies and fleets of Psi-jump drive equipped ships.

Reason against, however, is that researching Psionics didn't have any negative consequences for the player unlike, say, AI Robotics. Despite the fact that talking to an actual God and attempting to summon Space Cthulhu sounds every bit as frightening as the prospect of a robot takeover, my pops seem perfectly fine with it. Fallen Empires won't get mad at me for my sorcerous attempts at tearing down the very fabric of reality. And the Unbidden would strike the moment someone begins toying with jump drives, psionic or not. Compared to the potential risks of pursuing AI technology, Psionics had a get-out-of-jail-free card.

I was kinda hoping that Psi Tech would eventually face the same problems AI tech has now. Pops -particularly materialist ones- would get uneasy when scientists began talking to the dead, levitating objects and taking peeks into their minds. Going further down the rabbit hole would probably draw some diplomatic penalties with materialistic FEs, wary of the consequences of learning what should not be learnt. To cope with this, empires would be given the option to pass an empirewide policy to stop psionic research dead on its tracks (meaning you get to keep whatever psi research you've conducted, but no further Psionic techs appear) or banning Psi research altogether, destroying your archives and preventing psi techs from ever appearing again (unless you lifted the ban at a later point, that is). Basically, this would turn Psionics into the Spiritualist counterpart to the Materialists' AI. However, this would require that Psionic tech behaved, mechanically, like just every other research option in the game. That is, being integrated with the "common" tech tree.

This, however, might be perhaps too similar to materialism to qualify as a different playstyle. It would create a symmetry between materialists and spiritualists, and as everyone knows, symmetry is boring .

Anyways, I'm certain that Paradox has noticed this, and created something far more interesting and unique than my proposed "fix". We'll learn in a few months.

 

[aono]

Well, I do agree with you - locking psi to get to spiritualist signature playstyle will drop diversity, not improve it (no matter if it's research tree or ascension perks); and totally unlocking it will just make it "one more tech".
That's why I believe that making first tier achievable to everybody, second tier - ethos-specific, and add actual penalties to first tier as well as benefits (ethic divergence for obvious example) - is the best solution. Player will think twice before just taking everything ("I'm going robots, but if I take first-level psi, I'd will have problems with spiritualists psykers in my empire, so let put it away"), and AI can be just added weights when he don't take perks/actions that will drop his divergence more that X.

 

[garbud]

I think the point of psionics being locked to spiritualists is that they are the only ones who actually give any credit to the old storys about it existing in the first place. while materialists and other non-spiritualists treat psionics how we currently treat esp or future seeing or talking with the dead aka tall tales or pseudo science.

 

[Princess Stabbity]

So reading the dev diary. It says psi is locked to spiritualist in the non-dlc version of the game. If you have the dlc then psi is locked behind the ascension instead. The ascension won't be spiritualist locked.

I really hope that is the case! Especially given that ethics are more fluid in Banks so locking ascension perks behind an ethos gate would serve no purpose if anyone can just switch ethics any time to get around the arbitrary restriction and then go back to what they were as if nothing happened.

In fact I would argue that adding more restrictions to ethics is counterintuitive when the ability to change ethics is introduced at the same time.

Soooo here's hoping we can get some clarification on how exactly the devs imagine those two things coexisting. Or at least an assurance that everyone who's assuming transcendence paths are ethics-gated is incorrect.

 

[Sopbucket]

It's the very point - it is. To take this ascension perks you HAVE to be spiritualist.

The way I read it was, you have to have the ethos to research the technology, and you have to have the technology to take the perk. You don't have to be spiritualist when you actually take the perk, I think Wiz would have been more explicit about that if it were the case.

 

[Princess Stabbity]

I think the point of psionics being locked to spiritualists is that they are the only ones who actually give any credit to the old storys about it existing in the first place. while materialists and other non-spiritualists treat psionics how we currently treat esp or future seeing or talking with the dead aka tall tales or pseudo science.

I feel this makes very little sense. Psionic phenomena in Stellaris aren't tale tales or pseudoscience. They are verifiable, reproducible, documentable and possible to weaponise on a large scale. No materialist worth their salt (and/or Riggan Spice) can deny the existence of something when it has an observable effect on the universe, such as... the friendly neighbourhood Holy Guardians psi-jumping half across the galaxy and raining mind-powers on anyone who trespasses on their holy worlds.

Psionics in Stellaris is not a matter of faith. It's not subjective, it's not imaginary, it's not even that subtle - some civilisations use it to move their spaceships around! It can be observed, therefore it's science. Anyone who refuses to acknowledge the existence of something that exists is not someone who would be treated seriously in my Materialistic empire, let alone given any degree of authority on how my species should evolve.

 

[Avian Overlord]

I feel this makes very little sense. Psionic phenomena in Stellaris aren't tale tales or pseudoscience. They are verifiable, reproducible, documentable and possible to weaponise on a large scale. No materialist worth their salt (and/or Riggan Spice) can deny the existence of something when it has an observable effect on the universe, such as... the friendly neighbourhood Holy Guardians psi-jumping half across the galaxy and raining mind-powers on anyone who trespasses on their holy worlds.

Psionics in Stellaris is not a matter of faith. It's not subjective, it's not imaginary, it's not even that subtle - some civilisations use it to move their spaceships around! It can be observed, therefore it's science. Anyone who refuses to acknowledge the existence of something that exists is not someone who would be treated seriously in my Materialistic empire, let alone given any degree of authority on how my species should evolve.

Hence why you only need Spiritualist for the first leap of faith and can diverge afterwards.

 

[Xoatl]

Before getting into this, it's important to remind ourselves of Clarke's notion about sufficiently advanced technology and magic/miracles.



You are assuming the spiritualist equals cleric or philosopher. Do you know how many real philosophers here on Earth espouse a materialistic conception of reality in their epistemology? Spiritualist doesn't have to mean "dogmatic and stupid religious person" or "drum circling hippy who believes in crystals."

And let's not forget that Babylon 5 has plenty of spiritual elements to it. Heck, Jason Ironheart (a telepath) ascended into an energy being in one episode after the Psi Corps tried to apprehend him. Given the lore of the show, he basically turned into the same kind of semi-mystical entity that Vorlons or Shadows were. It makes little sense from a materialistic viewpoint.



Even if you are willing to go with midichlorians as the material basis of the force, the spiritual aspects of most philosophies of the Force are hard to deny. All of the canon (and non-canon) material I've encountered emphasize how the Force is tied to spiritual concepts. And while a person may or may not have access to the Force, a person requires training and understanding to use it properly, including quite a bit of training that has nothing to do with lightsabers or blasters.

Let's not forget Yoda's words, either: "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." If that isn't a firm rejection of materialism, I don't know what is.



Given how the Warp works, I find it weird that you want to put Warhammer 40k in the "psionics are not spiritual" camp. That does not even begin to address weird things like the Orks and their ability to mold and shape technology just because they think it should work.

So, I would say there is ample precedent for psionics having a spiritual dimension. That's not the only way to work it in science fiction, but let's not pretend that psioncs is never tied to spiritual stuff. It just seems like they want it tied to spiritual stuff in this particular universe.

Yeah I started watching Babylon 5 because of this forum and there's no hint that it supports the idea that full psionics should be open to everyone. In fact they have that back and forth we're having now where spiritualists (Like the soul hunter) arrive at the station, do their magic, and the doctor scoffs at it the whole time. Materialist vs. Spiritualist, same problem we're having here.

Also I am floored by the amount of people who seemingly know about the 40k universe that pretend that psykers are pure materialists. I've watched people quote text and source it, text that bring up spiritual elements and then proceed to do mental gymnastics to explain it as a materialist thought. Look I get it, you're fedora tippers, I was right there with you back in highschool. I'm not saying the soul and the spiritual realm will NEVER be looked at by the human scientific community as a respectable persuit. That isn't even the arguement I'm having. The terms spiritualist and materialist is enough explanation. One focuses on the spirit, through faith, religion, scientific method, drug use etc, it doesn't matter, these individuals view the spirit as top priority. Materialists on the other hand view the physical as the most vital part of their lives.

 

[prismaticmarcus]

Before getting into this, it's important to remind ourselves of Clarke's notion about sufficiently advanced technology and magic/miracles.



You are assuming the spiritualist equals cleric or philosopher. Do you know how many real philosophers here on Earth espouse a materialistic conception of reality in their epistemology? Spiritualist doesn't have to mean "dogmatic and stupid religious person" or "drum circling hippy who believes in crystals."

And let's not forget that Babylon 5 has plenty of spiritual elements to it. Heck, Jason Ironheart (a telepath) ascended into an energy being in one episode after the Psi Corps tried to apprehend him. Given the lore of the show, he basically turned into the same kind of semi-mystical entity that Vorlons or Shadows were. It makes little sense from a materialistic viewpoint.



Even if you are willing to go with midichlorians as the material basis of the force, the spiritual aspects of most philosophies of the Force are hard to deny. All of the canon (and non-canon) material I've encountered emphasize how the Force is tied to spiritual concepts. And while a person may or may not have access to the Force, a person requires training and understanding to use it properly, including quite a bit of training that has nothing to do with lightsabers or blasters.

Let's not forget Yoda's words, either: "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." If that isn't a firm rejection of materialism, I don't know what is.



Given how the Warp works, I find it weird that you want to put Warhammer 40k in the "psionics are not spiritual" camp. That does not even begin to address weird things like the Orks and their ability to mold and shape technology just because they think it should work.

So, I would say there is ample precedent for psionics having a spiritual dimension. That's not the only way to work it in science fiction, but let's not pretend that psioncs is never tied to spiritual stuff. It just seems like they want it tied to spiritual stuff in this particular universe.

 

[Xoatl]

Well, I've got my own reasons for being for and against locking Psionics away from the conventional tech tree.

Reason for it is, as others have already stated, diversity. Having psi technologies paired with the Spiritualist ethos resulted in all Spiritualist empires always getting it at some point or another. In the end, no matter if you were playing the Vatican States (which didn't have any superpowers that I'm aware of) or the Jedi Council, you always ended up stacked with Psionic armies and fleets of Psi-jump drive equipped ships.

Reason against, however, is that researching Psionics didn't have any negative consequences for the player unlike, say, AI Robotics. Despite the fact that talking to an actual God and attempting to summon Space Cthulhu sounds every bit as frightening as the prospect of a robot takeover, my pops seem perfectly fine with it. Fallen Empires won't get mad at me for my sorcerous attempts at tearing down the very fabric of reality. And the Unbidden would strike the moment someone begins toying with jump drives, psionic or not. Compared to the potential risks of pursuing AI technology, Psionics had a get-out-of-jail-free card.

I was kinda hoping that Psi Tech would eventually face the same problems AI tech has now. Pops -particularly materialist ones- would get uneasy when scientists began talking to the dead, levitating objects and taking peeks into their minds. Going further down the rabbit hole would probably draw some diplomatic penalties with materialistic FEs, wary of the consequences of learning what should not be learnt. To cope with this, empires would be given the option to pass an empirewide policy to stop psionic research dead on its tracks (meaning you get to keep whatever psi research you've conducted, but no further Psionic techs appear) or banning Psi research altogether, destroying your archives and preventing psi techs from ever appearing again (unless you lifted the ban at a later point, that is). Basically, this would turn Psionics into the Spiritualist counterpart to the Materialists' AI. However, this would require that Psionic tech behaved, mechanically, like just every other research option in the game. That is, being integrated with the "common" tech tree.

This, however, might be perhaps too similar to materialism to qualify as a different playstyle. It would create a symmetry between materialists and spiritualists, and as everyone knows, symmetry is boring .

Anyways, I'm certain that Paradox has noticed this, and created something far more interesting and unique than my proposed "fix". We'll learn in a few months.

Problem with the Vatican and pretty much any theocracy in history is that they had inquisitions and burned witches. Our religions are actively anti-psionics, whereas the Jedi's religion is very much pro-psionics.

 

[Bugnr01]

I dont get where the problem is with utopia from a gameplay point of view.

Keep in mind that empire ethics are not set in stone in utopia. You can change them. So to go psi you have to be spiritualist for a very brief moment to take the perk. This could indeed lead to fanatic materialists with psi powers. The empire diversity in utopia much likely comes from therir ethic heritage and not from the starting choice. You, as a civilication, are more or less able to do everything your actual ethics allows or go and continue a way one of your ancesters started.

Great for story telling. The matrialist, peacefull empire got spiritualist after losing all hope in a terrible war to find out that the unsiverse offers so much more, unlocking their psi powers and went on a galaxy rampage/revenge spree as fanatic militarits/materialists.

The question is how difficuld is it to switch your empire ethic and how likely/under what circumstances does the AI switch it.