Psionic ascension vs Gene ascension vs Synthetic ascension

[Vladisi]

It seems like most people here haven't played synths properly. Partly the best features of synth are not fully understood and deemed as useless. The other part is people not being aware of applied boni. E.g. synth ascenion gives +10% robo output on jobs. Not as much as the +20% from pre-Le-Guin, but still a lot. And they can have unity and research boni.

Seems like most of the information provided in this thread concerning synth ascenion is simply wront.

In my opinion, synth is still really, really strong if played correctly. And keep in mind that right after the ascension took place (project finished), you will have many pops without traits. So of course your output will drop for a few years. But AFTER modding your ascended pops from no traits to full traits (and you also get another trait point for robos), your economy will skyrocket.

Unascended synths also get +10% from actual synth tech, for a total of +20% for ascended ones, so they still get the same general bonus old synths got. There is now actually an incensitive to pick that ascension perk, while previously it was feasible to stop at cyborgs. I actually don't think the output should drop after ascension, as old pops now get +20% output over whatever organic traits they had, which can't possibly amount to that, aside from +25% bonus to one science. The only output that should drop is energy.

It is a pity, however, that you can't modify pops per stratum. There was a talk about making it possible, but clearly it wasn't implemented.

 

[Novacat]

It seems like most people here haven't played synths properly. Partly the best features of synth are not fully understood and deemed as useless. The other part is people not being aware of applied boni. E.g. synth ascenion gives +10% robo output on jobs. Not as much as the +20% from pre-Le-Guin, but still a lot. And they can have unity and research boni.

That is still a lot less than what they used to get, as there were other bonuses pre-Le Guin that you could stack on top of that +20% Racial trait bonus, share the burden being most famous/infamous. It used to be that nothing, biologically, could match up to synth research and unity production, and even mineral and energy production could only be matched/surpassed by biologicals by using a combination of species traits and slavery shenanigans.

 

[Linusz]

Then please show me how this has changed. You will basically get the same traits for bios and synth theses days. Only that synths still get +20% on everything (you can make it 25% actually, but that would cost 3 trait points). In which scenarion can that be surpassed by bios? Bio ascendancy, of course, but only for one of the different science resources. The rest lags behind.

Edit: I have to correct myself here, at least concerning theory and praxis. I cannot find robo output modifiers applied anywhere. But that should be a bug.

 

[Tech Noir Synth]

It seems like most people here haven't played synths properly. Partly the best features of synth are not fully understood and deemed as useless. The other part is people not being aware of applied boni. E.g. synth ascenion gives +10% robo output on jobs. Not as much as the +20% from pre-Le-Guin, but still a lot. And they can have unity and research boni.

Seems like most of the information provided in this thread concerning synth ascenion is simply wront.

In my opinion, synth is still really, really strong if played correctly. And keep in mind that right after the ascension took place (project finished), you will have many pops without traits. So of course your output will drop for a few years. But AFTER modding your ascended pops from no traits to full traits (and you also get another trait point for robos), your economy will skyrocket.

It seems like people who deem Synth ascension bad do not have current info. Synths get a +10% flat ressource output (down from 20% before Le guin). However, Synth Evolution perk grants robots another 10% ressource output, so you end up back at 20% flat output bonus. You also get an extra point for Robomodding. Of course you slap on less housing usage and faster assembly speed + whatever traits you want. Prefrably specialized traits like 15% bonus minerals, or if you are lazy just create 1 Robot type with a small 5% additional ressource output on everything.

Sadly we no longer get out food distrcits turned into energy districts. This is a big loss. Don't get me started on Bio reactors. We already did the math in several threads talking about machine empires. We can also no longer queue up different Robot types to build. Instead we have to change these Robots out manually which is very tedious.

The current pop system makes proper pop management impossible and an unbearable task. So it is a slight bonus to have a flat 20% ressource output even if your pop is doing a job it was not designed for.

Synths have very strong growth from extra roboticist jobs: At 80+ pop capital building prodives 10 pop growth, you can get up to >12 with 1 robot factory and assembly speed bonuses.

However, there is another downside. Synths do not migrate. So be prepared to keep resettling pops. I do not understand why they don't migrate, they totally should. I spend >50 years in my game resettling pops from my fully developed colonies to other places. I am currently on more than 50 planets and pop management is a nightmare. I don't even bother clicking on the proper robots to assemble anymore.

There is no more way to specialize in engineering research besides pop traits. In the past we would simply build engineering labs. Now since its no longer possible, doing the Synthetic evolution tasks puts you super far behind in engineering research, another big downside. Like Machine empires, Synths still require many quality of life changes before they become viable and fun to play again.

 

[Novacat]

Then please show me how this has changed. You will basically get the same traits for bios and synth theses days. Only that synths still get +20% on everything (you can make it 25% actually, but that would cost 3 trait points). In which scenarion can that be surpassed by bios? Bio ascendancy, of course, but only for one of the different science resources. The rest lags behind.

For Bio ascendancy, Erudite grants +20% Research and a leader trait that gives +5% Research bonus.

Psionic Ascendancy gets +10% Research on psionic trait and +10% from Intelligent.

All Biological pops can potentially get Brain slugs and/or Uplifted, so that can be pushed to +40% on both accounts.

Unity is perhaps a fair point, though organics now have a cheap 1-point +10% Unity trait while previously they had nothing.

 

[N35t0r]

The downside of psi ascendancy (besides the randomness) is that you have to assimilate all non-starter pops, and while you are doing so (which can take several years at a couple pop per year) all non-assimilated pops count as unemployed, which can slow your economy to a crawl, besides popping up events related to high unemployment.

My current game as a life-seeded species in which I conquered my nearest neighbor and a primitive species, both of which consist of almost 1/2 my total pops, my economy almost collapsed during their assimilation (research went down to almost nothing in one case, and consumer goods talked in the second, which had me buying those in the market for a couple of years, and meant I had to sell a lot of other stuff to afford it).

Luckily all my food and minerals were being generated by serviles, so no need to assimilate those.

 

[Slynx]

I like Psi ascension. it's easy to progress but usually hard to get(unless you had a maniacal scientist)
psi shields are basically T6 Shield. pricog is good for tracking. jedi come early and strong enough to compensate for being Weak(trait) for example. Psi jump frives are also awesome.
you get some fun stuff from the shroud(even if it's not OP) it's still something to do
you gain research and evasion and since your empire is spiritualistic you have some control over your pops(ethics).

Genemod is strong. cuz Growth is king in 2.2. also good armies and traits. but you lack any events, and modding takes time(though it's way faster then 2.1-) so you'll be lacking social techs for a while(and they are needed for warfare(fleetcap\limit), food and other good stuff.

not particularly fan of Synth in 2.2. yes, you're fast growing(extremely fast for Nomadic+RapidBreaders & massProduced+Recycled) and have a lot of tech and resources. but your armies are meh (cyborgs are crap and later ones are too late to bother). also I think you have no unique tech except machine world
assimilation is a bit messy too in my opinion

overall I think it highly depends on a playstyle. Purifiers with Psi may become unstoppable if they'll be able to roll Theory fast enough. but for a peaceful gameplay i'd bet on Bio.

 

[Livigy]

Bio with Slavery can be ridiculously strong. Especially if you take Barbaric despoiler/xenophobe for the livestock and adaptability tree.

Bio and slavery work well together so even though most of what I will mention relates to slavery bio ascension is essential to make it work effectively through tailoring species and nerve staples. The main complaint people are making with bio is the micro but there are some tools to help with that. Although I would still personally shy away from slaver guilds at least until after you get your third civic or have a conquered servant species and maybe have thrall worlds. Bio ascension when paired with xenophile and crossbreeding can still be a nightmare and you are generally locked out of slavery so lose many tools to control the chaos.

The first tool is utilising different slave types, this is where some of the bigger advantages are- Don't just make all slaves chattel.

Biomodded livestock and servants are ridiculously efficient by lowering the needs of housing consumer goods and building/districts. Which has a major snowball effect over the course of the game. One livestock can get over 14 food -this is still lower than actual farmers. But live stock use minimal or no consumer goods, don't require districts (which helps empire sprawl), don't require power to run districts or buildings and use minimal housing such as 0.2 housing per pop

Now if you fill an ecumonoplis with livestock you will have amenities problem..

Which is solved by servants. Who also require no buildings, minimal housing and minimal/no consumer goods. Servants are also able to take on other jobs such as clerks or even mine and farm etc so they are great to have as an all rounder. When a better slave comes along they will demote into the servant role so they are never unemployed and will keep your amenities high on any world. They are also great to put on new worlds to help unlock building slots and hit the first 10 pops to get rid of the new colony debuff, especially as they add to amenities and require next to no housing.

In the early game you should consider conquering a neighbour and turn them all into servants and dispersing them to your planets - give them decent living conditions to help your stability/crime for a measly 0.05 consumer goods. You will still have to feed your new 'friends' but you wont suffer a huge swing in consumer good demand and your new specialist buildings will become inactive so you can slowly rebuild the world rather than suffering a huge economic adjustment - your servants will still work the basic districts though so generally there shouldn't be major food issues.

The other major tool is Thrall worlds. Thrall worlds spawn the type of slave you want (they only spawn slaves currently on the world) so you can stockpile slaves and move them as necessary. Slaves by default are cheaper to move and when on a thrall world they don't become unemployed they just 'toil' - they are essentially awaiting distribution. If you have enough slave housing you can stockpile for quite a while then instead little population movements every so often (which is micro intensive) you can set up a new world and move large amounts of stockpiled pops. I recommend Thrallworlds on a planet with growth bonuses or a world with decent mineral districts or any small world that has unique resources. Also the world does not need to be trade route accessible so the fringe worlds are great for thralls. If you are heavily slaving consider forgoing most or even all your normal mining/rural worlds in favour of thrall worlds. If you have livestock you don't need agriworlds and the 5% mineral bonus doesn't compare against the slave growth and functionality of stockpiling slaves without issue. You can't convert already established worlds into thrall worlds though but if the world is small and useless consider tearing it town and rebuilding even though you have to send out another colony ship.

The last major tool to help with the micro is stopping species breeding.
Don't be afraid to stop species from breeding to get your balance right, at some point you should want to stop the food/mineral slaves breeding even if it is just a 10 year break as you want other pops breeding - typically your non slave species. Some of the micro you will face is dealing with pops you no longer really need, so stop them breeding early and let servants fill the gaps until you are sure you need more of a particular slave.

 

[Subcomandante]

Then please show me how this has changed. You will basically get the same traits for bios and synth theses days. Only that synths still get +20% on everything (you can make it 25% actually, but that would cost 3 trait points). In which scenarion can that be surpassed by bios? Bio ascendancy, of course, but only for one of the different science resources. The rest lags behind.

Edit: I have to correct myself here, at least concerning theory and praxis. I cannot find robo output modifiers applied anywhere. But that should be a bug.

Some bonuses are subsumed into the "empire" bonus.

The tooltips are problematic, which is why many find it hard understand synth ascension in 2.2. As you say it is even better than in 2.1, and at worst about equal to bio ascension. I'd say that just looking at the numbers, synth ascension is better than bio. And not just with unity, but with everything. Pretty sure it's going to be nerfed.

 

[Acheron]

Side question: what would you think about bio-ascension giving you an additional two trait picks (one per ascension perk)? You do get a decent amount of trait points, no doubt, but the number of picks could IMHO be higher for more flexibility.

 

[ArmChairAttila]

Side question: what would you think about bio-ascension giving you an additional two trait picks (one per ascension perk)? You do get a decent amount of trait points, no doubt, but the number of picks could IMHO be higher for more flexibility.

I'm not so sure BIO needs a buff. BIO is reliable, gives decent buffs and amazing for hives and slavers. Another really good advantage BIO has is using society to buff your pops. By mid/late game there is only 1 society techs I need and 1 I want but can pass on. Glandular Acclimation and Targeted Gene Expression. The other important but can wait techs like Galactic Bureaucracy and Ascension Theory can wait until the majority of my BIO projects are done. I can not say the same for machines and synthetics. I am really uncomfortable spending engineering on special projects unless I already have zero point modules, battleships and arc emitters or gig cannon researched. So it seems to me that situation alone is a significant buff for BIO.

 

[Linusz]

For Bio ascendancy, Erudite grants +20% Research and a leader trait that gives +5% Research bonus.

Psionic Ascendancy gets +10% Research on psionic trait and +10% from Intelligent.

All Biological pops can potentially get Brain slugs and/or Uplifted, so that can be pushed to +40% on both accounts.

Unity is perhaps a fair point, though organics now have a cheap 1-point +10% Unity trait while previously they had nothing.

So Synths get 20% in general. They get 5% from Efficient Processors and they get 10% from Logic engines. Which is a guranteed 35% plus they are 20% better at everything else. I would say that is quite a lot better than having +40% research (which is not guaranteed as you have to rely on events) since pop specialisation with the current system is not possible to the degree it was.

The leader trait for scientist is also 5% for synths.

 

[Subcomandante]

So Synths get 20% in general. They get 5% from Efficient Processors and they get 10% from Logic engines. Which is a guranteed 35% plus they are 20% better at everything else. I would say that is quite a lot better than having +40% research (which is not guaranteed as you have to rely on events) since pop specialisation with the current system is not possible to the degree it was.

The leader trait for scientist is also 5% for synths.

Be aware that a synth ruler also gives 5% on everything, so you arrive at a solid +30% on everything if everybody is a synth. Before other robomodding and pop bonuses. "Everything" also means alloys nowadays, which bio fans haven't noticed it seems.

 

[Acheron]

Be aware that a synth ruler also gives 5% on everything, so you arrive at a solid +30% on everything if everybody is a synth. Before other robomodding and pop bonuses. "Everything" also means alloys nowadays, which bio fans haven't noticed it seems.

Alloys? Precious, precious alloys?!

 

[Longprao]

Should I just wait to pick bio and done all the researches of gene mod +1 before applying template modify project, or do it every time I have a new +1 point? Which is faster?

Same question for robomodding?

 

[Acheron]

Should I just wait to pick bio and done all the researches of gene mod +1 before applying template modify project, or do it every time I have a new +1 point? Which is faster?

Same question for robomodding?

Both bio-ascension perks give reduce the costs of applying template, so I guess it would be best to wait. With robots, the last ascension perk gives a boon, so again, I'd say better wait.

 

[Infin-Vec]

Can Synthetic Evolution country stop build ordinary "blank board" Robots? Even if in Egalitarian ethic? Will Robots' migration species right angry the Egalitarian Faction?
Can Synthetic Evolution country with Xenophobe ethic set non-uploaded Robots to Purge or Slavery? Even if in materialist ethic and given Citizen Rights AI Policy before Ascension?
Can Synthetic Evolution country generate Synthetic Leaders if AI Policy was Outlawed or Servitude before Ascension?​

Synth is really bugged in 2.2.2, I played Egalitarian-Xenophobe-Materialist with Synth Ascension and suffered from a lot of problems above.
Fast population growth might be the only thing beneficial of Synth Ascension I think, especially when you preserved your original organic specie somehow.

 

[Linusz]

Synth is really bugged in 2.2.2, I played Egalitarian-Xenophobe-Materialist with Synth Ascension and suffered from a lot of problems above.
Fast population growth might be the only thing beneficial of Synth Ascension I think, especially when you preserved your original organic specie somehow.

I only noticed the one bug with no rulers, which can be circumvented. And I only played Synth Ascension since Le Guin dropped. If you only see the population grwoth as a benefit, you really haven't read all posts in this thread.

 

[Infin-Vec]

I only noticed the one bug with no rulers, which can be circumvented. And I only played Synth Ascension since Le Guin dropped. If you only see the population grwoth as a benefit, you really haven't read all posts in this thread.

Then how do you think about the benefit of Synth Ascension in 2.2, compared with other Ascensions?
As Android Armies are gone, can Robotic Armies of Synth Ascension fight on and win against Gene Warriors or Psionic Armies?
Can blank-board started robots with only robo-modding overwhelm advance traits edited organics in economy?

 

[Alastor]

I always go for bioascension. The power it gives you over your species is indispensable. Plus Erudite is an awesome trait. It's a shame I don't get the extras that psionic gives like Shroud access, or stuff like Prethoryn flavour. But in the end the benefits are just too big to ignore. I have no clue why I would want to even bother with cybernetics.