PSA about new weapons

[EmptyPepsiCan]

Hi all. This is a big edit.

It seems like my message of empowerment and self reliance has been misconstrued and is being taken as one of those diatribes against whining that we regularly see on gaming forums. That was not my intent, so I'll try it a bit differently:

In a few days Heavy Metal will be released. The developers will say something to the effect of "This is done and we think that we did a good job balancing all of the new weapons and mechs."

Most players will agree.

Some players, however, will say things like "The inferno rack seems underpowered with so little ammo" or "The range on the Large Coil Laser is a bit too long to be fair" or "I want all of the Unseen in my starting lance."

That doesn't mean that the devs suck or the expansion is incomplete or blah, blah whatever. What it means is that people can generally agree about the state of the game while still wishing that a few specific things were different. With some games or on some platforms those folks would just have to sigh and get over it.

But not in this game. In this game it's really easy to make the fast 60-tonners move on an earlier initiative phase, or make PPCs a bit more heat efficient, or make inferno racks a half ton lighter. Trivial, in fact.

A lot of us already know that. Some, however, do not. So I thought I'd point it out.

If the new weapons aren't set up quite the way you wish they were it will most likely be easy for you to change them in small ways.

 

[MeiSooHaityu]

I think concerns are valid considering what we know so far. I don't think it's worry level or dire, but still a good topic to discuss and voice concern.

I think seeing it more in action will help us really see how they perform (or possibly over perform).

I think the stream tonight will have gameplay and hopefully some Coil gameplay. If not, maybe a stream before HMs launch dedicated to the different Coils and mechs might be good. Not just mechs where the Coil is most beneficial, but also mechs where it isn't beneficial so we can get a better idea of what they can do and how.

Overall I think a conversation and debate on this is good. I just wouldn't be too concerned at this point. HBS plays and is passionate about the game, we should remember that mechanics like this are made by fans of the game .

 

[EmptyPepsiCan]

Sure, debate is good.

Remembering that we can be the change we want to see is also good.

 

[Icewraith]

Sure, debate is good.

Remembering that we can be the change we want to see is also good.

Just because you can tweak it doesn’t mean it’s still not important to get the default state of the game right. These sorts of things tend to persist once introduced.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

Just because you can tweak it doesn’t mean it’s still not important to get the default state of the game right. These sorts of things tend to persist once introduced.

Agreed.

And make no mistake, HBS parses through our various BATTLETECH Forum discussions and debates. While they do not always weigh in, our efforts have helped inform HBS on how their game is being received. And while it is not due to Forum feedback alone, HBS has refined and improved BATTLETECH in part based on our feedback.

By all means, we should keep respectful Forum discussion and debate alive and well. :bow:

 

[stjobe]

Also, lest someone forgets, we are a quarrelsome and tempestuous lot that simply love to argue about barely-known facts and how they fit into (our version) of the BattleTech lore. It is simply a given that when fed a small iota of information, we will dissect, discuss, argue, extrapolate, and dig trenches about the very important [trademark] ramifications of said iota.

 

[AncientRaig]

Just because you can tweak it doesn’t mean it’s still not important to get the default state of the game right. These sorts of things tend to persist once introduced.

So much this. I should not have to mod a game in order to have a good play experience. The idea that "If something is unbalanced, we'll just leave it to the modding community to fix it!" is what can lead companies to end up like Bethesda, where games are launched in buggy, unfinished states and it's left up to the community to salvage a working product. I'm already a little concerned that HBS may be falling down this same hole with the introduction of quirks to all of the new mechs, as they've stated they have no intention of retroactively introducing quirks to the older mechs in the game and, assuming the stats for the quirks we've seen so far are the final version, I see many of the Heavy Metal mechs making most if not all of the current mechs in their weight class obsolete.

 

[MeiSooHaityu]

Thing is, the level of joy/contentment/disdain over game design ideas and mechanics is subjective and varies from person to person.

So, even if some people thinks a game needs mods, that doesn't necessarily mean everyone feels the same. Everyone's tastes are different.

That is why modding is popular. It allows people to cater an experience to their liking.

 

[Jamey]

Also, lest someone forgets, we are a quarrelsome and tempestuous lot that simply love to argue

No we don’t!

I am glad that official mod support is coming. Making it easier for everyone to get the BATTLETECH they want is a good thing.

 

[Icewraith]

So much this. I should not have to mod a game in order to have a good play experience. The idea that "If something is unbalanced, we'll just leave it to the modding community to fix it!" is what can lead companies to end up like Bethesda, where games are launched in buggy, unfinished states and it's left up to the community to salvage a working product. I'm already a little concerned that HBS may be falling down this same hole with the introduction of quirks to all of the new mechs, as they've stated they have no intention of retroactively introducing quirks to the older mechs in the game and, assuming the stats for the quirks we've seen so far are the final version, I see many of the Heavy Metal mechs making most if not all of the current mechs in their weight class obsolete.

Well without its quirk, the Warhammer is just a crappier Grasshopper, unless you really care about using that one missile slot.

Your basic Archer build is done better by the Orion-K, and as a bonus the Orion has both missile slots in the same torso so you can shield much more safely with the opposite side.

The Orion-K also already has the hardpoints to duplicate the Marauder and weighs and moves exactly the same.

The Assassin without its quirk manages to combine the approximate firepower of the fast Cicada with the movement speed of the slow one (and jump jets, but still...)

The Flea without its quirk is a bigger deathtrap than the Commando, same movement with even less armor, structure, and available tonnage. The Firestarter has everything on it except looks.

The Phoenix Hawk and Rifleman fill genuine empty holes in the mech roster, we didn’t have a speed six medium period nor did we have a speed four 60 ton mech. Being a speed four 60 ton mech isn’t an especially great distinction since once again you can stick substantially the same loadout on either Orion and get a better result.

Being the Phoenix Hawk also isn’t that great in a world where medium mechs are easier to hit and have worse initiative compared to light mechs. It’s also really, really starved for hardpoints, and the ones it does have are exclusively arm-mounted. The Firestarter just laughs.

Sharing the Phoenix Hawk’s pain is the Vulcan, which is a 40-ton mech supposedly intended for anti-infantry use entering a game without infantry, where battlemech physical attack damage has been buffed significantly. It doesn’t have hands, so its melee damage is probably pretty low when one of the big bonuses of having support weapons is you can use them during a physical attack. Without quirks it gets backhanded into oblivion if it tries to bring its support weapons into play.

And then there’s the Annihilator, which is basically an Urbanmech value pack that doesn’t jump. The damage quirk makes it scarier and I suspect the stability damage reduction is because it was too easy to salvage by running away and spamming +stab LRMs. I mean, LRMs are probably still a good plan, just bring the +damage ones. And never face one down without some damage reduction.

So yeah, they needed to do something to spice up the new old mechs.

 

[Kereminde]

Well without its quirk, the Warhammer is just a crappier Grasshopper, unless you really care about using that one missile slot.

Your basic Archer build is done better by the Orion-K, and as a bonus the Orion has both missile slots in the same torso so you can shield much more safely with the opposite side.

The Orion-K also already has the hardpoints to duplicate the Marauder and weighs and moves exactly the same.

The Assassin without its quirk manages to combine the approximate firepower of the fast Cicada with the movement speed of the slow one (and jump jets, but still...)

The Flea without its quirk is a bigger deathtrap than the Commando, same movement with even less armor, structure, and available tonnage. The Firestarter has everything on it except looks.

The Phoenix Hawk and Rifleman fill genuine empty holes in the mech roster, we didn’t have a speed six medium period nor did we have a speed four 60 ton mech. Being a speed four 60 ton mech isn’t an especially great distinction since once again you can stick substantially the same loadout on either Orion and get a better result.

Being the Phoenix Hawk also isn’t that great in a world where medium mechs are easier to hit and have worse initiative compared to light mechs. It’s also really, really starved for hardpoints, and the ones it does have are exclusively arm-mounted. The Firestarter just laughs.

Sharing the Phoenix Hawk’s pain is the Vulcan, which is a 40-ton mech supposedly intended for anti-infantry use entering a game without infantry, where battlemech physical attack damage has been buffed significantly. It doesn’t have hands, so its melee damage is probably pretty low when one of the big bonuses of having support weapons is you can use them during a physical attack. Without quirks it gets backhanded into oblivion if it tries to bring its support weapons into play.

And then there’s the Annihilator, which is basically an Urbanmech value pack that doesn’t jump. The damage quirk makes it scarier and I suspect the stability damage reduction is because it was too easy to salvage by running away and spamming +stab LRMs. I mean, LRMs are probably still a good plan, just bring the +damage ones. And never face one down without some damage reduction.

So yeah, they needed to do something to spice up the new old mechs.

I dunno, I'm looking at this separately - because I sat through the old forums and so many other discussions there were a lot of undercurrents which usually straight-up ignored the min/max aspects of "what can be done in a 'Mech Lab".

The Warhammer and Marauder were always slightly crappy and coasted by on "they look cool". The Archer had that Morgan Kell magic allure, not harmed by the feel it's a fairly solid performer. The P. Hawk is one of the seemingly common Mediums found across many of the factions, so . . . yeah, these four units aren't strictly necessary. But leaving them out left a hole in the feel of the game, for several of us who don't just look at the stats and try to honor the lore/fluff. To quote/paraphrase many people: "It's just not 3025 without the WHM, ARC, and MAD." The Vulcan and Assassin have been brought up more than once as "wonder if these should be added" as I recall, in the past. The Rifleman has always been a "it sucks but we love it anyway" feel I get off people. The Flea and Annihilator both are a "whaaa?" addition but not unwelcome.

I don't think any of these needed spicing-up, but this is a game of possibilities. (Not just HBS' game, but BattleTech as a whole.) It's about trying something slightly off-base but rooted in lore because it looks fun. At this point I'd not be surprised if every table which had run several games has adopted their own homebrewed "not quite by-the-book" experience, and HBS is making theirs here in this game. So far, I'm enjoying it. (Now if they announce a major free update to bring old 'Mechs into parity through an expanded quirk system, but not to give EVERY chassis/model a quirk I'd be glad!)

As for the weapons . . . I dunno, let's come back to me after tonight.

 

[koz-ivan]

The Warhammer and Marauder were always slightly crappy and coasted by on "they look cool".

While they both did have iconic looks to them (they were often the cover models of the novels / sourcebooks / promo mats) there was something to be said for the dual PPC designs in 3025 Battletech. A 10 pt hit at range could potentially do some very spicy things, and having 2 of those is exceedingly rare (iirc the only other 3025 mech that had 2+ 10 pt hits was the Awesome)

I don't think any of these needed spicing-up, but this is a game of possibilities.

There is real diminishing returns with new mech designs, look at the various 55 ton 5/8 mechs already in game - the only real difference factor among them is the SH's melee damage buff & the hardpoint allotments.

With all the mechs & variants already in game, there aren't *that* many really unique (and decent) combinations of weight, speed & hardpoints that we haven't already seen.

 

[EmptyPepsiCan]

Just because you can tweak it doesn’t mean it’s still not important to get the default state of the game right. These sorts of things tend to persist once introduced.

Interestimg.

It seems like my message of empowerment and self reliance has been misconstrued and is being taken as one of those diatribes against whining. I'll try it a bit differently:

In a few days Heavy Metal will be released. The developers will say something to the effect of "This is done and we think that we did a good job balancing all of the new weapons and mechs."

Most players will agree.

Some players, however, will say things like "The inferno rack seems underpowered with so little ammo" or "The range on the Large Coil Laser is a bit too long to be fair" or "I want all of the Unseen in my starting lance."

That doesn't mean that the devs suck or the expansion is incomplete or blah, blah whatever. What it means is that people can generally agree about the state of the game while still wishing that a few specific things were different. With some games or on some platforms those folks would just have to sigh and get over it.

But not in this game. In this game it's really easy to make the fast 60-tonners move on an earlier initiative phase, or make PPCs a bit more heat efficient, or make inferno racks a half ton lighter. Trivial, in fact.

A lot of us already know that. Some, however, do not. So I thought I'd point it out.

 

[Kereminde]

There is real diminishing returns with new mech designs, look at the various 55 ton 5/8 mechs already in game - the only real difference factor among them is the SH's melee damage buff & the hardpoint allotments.

With all the mechs & variants already in game, there aren't *that* many really unique (and decent) combinations of weight, speed & hardpoints that we haven't already seen.

This is true as I browse my RS 3039 book too

 

[Jade_Rook]

Cataphract has an AC/10 and PPC, but it wasn't out until TRO 3050 (even if the mech existed before then).

Personally I am looking forward to better modding options. Currently it is a bit tricky to work with DLC content, but it should be possible.

 

[Gauntlet]

It seems like my message of empowerment and self reliance has been misconstrued and is being taken as one of those diatribes against whining.

it was taken that way because that's the way it came across especially because of this:

Long story short, changing small things that frustrate you is literally easier than complaining about them.

 

[Kereminde]

Cataphract has an AC/10 and PPC, but it wasn't out until TRO 3050 (even if the mech existed before then).

Personally I am looking forward to better modding options. Currently it is a bit tricky to work with DLC content, but it should be possible.

The CTF-1X was apparently a retcon, but it's now in the prior Introductory Box as well as the RS 3039. (Not unabridged, the simplified ones.) As this was released in 2008, it can be readily assumed to have included all the retcons which put 'Mechs outside their "supposed" time periods by tracing back prototypes or early models. (Such as the WLF-1 Wolfhound.)

 

[Jamey]

The Rifleman has always been a "it sucks but we love it anyway" feel I get off people.

It does suck, but I do love it anyway.

 

[EmptyPepsiCan]

it was taken that way because that's the way it came across especially because of this:

Long story short, changing small things that frustrate you is literally easier than complaining about them.

I suppose, but it's still a fact. I will edit the initial post to smooth any inadvertently ruffled feathers.

 

[MajorPrankster]

Also, lest someone forgets, we are a quarrelsome and tempestuous lot that simply love to argue about barely-known facts and how they fit into (our version) of the BattleTech lore. It is simply a given that when fed a small iota of information, we will dissect, discuss, argue, extrapolate, and dig trenches about the very important [trademark] ramifications of said iota.

And this is why, IME, PSAs and pretty much any other topics on this forum are generally rendered worthless.
While the grognards proudly bicker like children, the rest of us get turned off to the BT community, if not in fact the game itself.

I come back to check on progrssion of the game now and then and this board is just filled with bickering over minutae, just like BT TT in so many stores, with a bunch of supposed 'veterans' acting like children while yelling 'get off my lawn'.

IMO, the game survives in spite of this forum, not because of it, from my PoV.
Thankfully, after next week and a couple stability patches, I won't feel the need to read much here for a while again.