Prussia in 1.03

[iBaLkiD]

I find that I have no issues playing Prussia in 1.03

The only time I thought I was sunk was when in 1848 the Liberial Revolution happen and then only a month later the event to declare war on Denmark happened and Denmark was some how allied to Russia who also DOW'ed on me. Luckily I was able to mobilize my troops seize Danish territory and got Schleswig-Holstein in peace negotiations. Rebel were frequent but only a nuisance. I was able to balance the budget and get a budget surplus by sacrificing some law enforcement, cutting defense spending and army maintenance in peace time, and put all three taxes at 50%. I was thus able to industrialize at home and even was able to claim the historical colonies in Cameroon, Nambia, Western New Guinea, and the Solomon Islands befor the English or the French could claim everything in sight. I even was able to declare war on Oman and found the colony of Tanzania (German East Africa). Then came the 6 weeks war and I trounced Austria because I could mobilize 80 divisions. When the war came with France in 1870 I was able to quickly capture Paris because I had a defensive alliance with Belgium and they also DOW'ed France. It's now 1876, I have Germany united and am the #1 Great Power. The only gripe I have is that Russia DOW'ed me in 1873 even though I had +185 relations with them. I know my BB is high after uniting Germany but come on +185 relations! France and Austria have not yet DOW'ed me and I have -200 relations with both of them. Maybe it's the 140 divisions I can mobilize that is keeping them at bay.

Im pulling my Hair out. People please stop comparing SP with MP. I can take Serbia in the GC and own most of Europe, the entire Baltic, and half of the Ottoman Empire by end game. How long do you think i would last With Serbia in MP?

All some of us want is to be able to MULTIPLAYER with some of the larger nations. I KNOW THAT PRUSSIA WAS IN A DIFFICULT TIME AT THE START OF THE GC. THATS HISTORY, BUT IT MAKES FOR HORRIBLE GAMING, MP WISE. I love Prussia in 1.3 against the computer. Fun and challanging stuff. But as far a MP gaming goes why even have it as a playable nation? Seriously? The only way it can be viable is have your group of MP'ers set up alliances b4 hand, or set rules, or mod files then distribute them amongst you group players. Wow, thats not tedious or anything.

I believe that a MP scenario is in order. Something balanced more for gameplay. This game is so full of abstraction and summations that i dont understand how alot of you people nit pick certain things and are fine with others. What it come down to is personal opinion and taste for game play type. Again this can all be solved my Paradox making the game more flexible. Options to dummy things down for people less intested in micro/macro/economy and such, with options to make the game as complex as possible. Again another Rant...ugh.

On a final note i notice a trend in these Prussia weak threads. Most people who dont have a problem with Prussia are SP enthusiaist. Thats great, Prussia is definatley very playable and fun in 1.3 SP. My most played nation in SP!

It seems a majority of those who feel that Prussia is under pwoered are primarily playing MP.

Two different worlds here...

I love Prussia in SP. Challenging and fun!

I hate Prussia in MP. Its like the runt of the World powers, very vulnerable to human tactics,Fragile at the Start, and vulnerable to game exploits.

 

[unmerged(6909)]

I agree with some of what you say, but immensley dissagree with SP strats compared to MP strats. SP is dealing with a fairly competent AI(Dumb when comapared to human, well most of us any way)...

Im MP your dealing with well schooled, intelligent VIC/Paradox players. If im a powerful neighbor of Prussia you better believe i will make his life hell. I also know the inherent weaknesses of Prussia and will use it to my advantage.

How does a player or two who produce Sulfur en-masse, who both choose to stockpile sulfur, instead of selling at the WM, effect a Prussian player? Does it make it even harder for Prussia to procure a rare resource?(Not shure asking, will look into it. I assume it does, not cost, but availability.)

Also is this game supposed to be an exact historic replication of the ERA? Down to every little detail(Impossible). Or do you think MINOR TWEAKS to certain Nations can make the game more fun and enjoyable. Im not talkin about makin nations a-historical uber powers, more so making a fun MP experience to all. If you want to get nit picky then all nations in this game need to be researched intensivley and represented as such in the game(How boring)

As someone mention before certain sacrifices needed to be made so that the game would be enjoyable in ever facet. I feel that Prussia needs a bit more tweaking. Not enough to be able to go on a wacky imperialistic spree, but just a better opening. I hate having to build up my econ, early, massivley cut cost's, mobilize because of a possible threat on my borders only to find it a clever bluff by my opponent. He know mobilizing will wreak havoc on my econ, even further setting me back. Prussia needs time to build itself up, and MP that is usually a death sentence. Only time i am able to do well with Prussia is when i have a human ally feeding me a little money here and there.

In contrast i can take over all of europe, a majority of Russia and even drive into the orient and middle east by late 70's early 80's. Thats on the Hardest setting's. Please, no more, "Ive played Prussia three times against the comp last night and my econ was just fine" As i said before MP when COmpared to SP is a world apart, both fun as hell, but totally different game dynamics, decsions, and mechanics involved... I could never achieve the aformentioned results with Prussia playing MP 1.3 against a bunch of subpar players.

Maybe a great solution would be to have a MP scenario added in the next patch, or a community Mod. With different nation starts, tweaked to make the game more balanced for the sake of playability, not much but enough to get makes things run smoother.


OT---

Options to simplify game mechanics would bring new gamers to the fold, i really dont understand Paradox's all or nothing approach to their games. The more flexible a game is playability wise(GAME OPTIONS, choices), the more diverse of a consumer base you will have. Thats a rant for another day tho...

I'm not commenting anything which could happen in MP because everything could happen there and Prussia in 1836 was hardly a match for the major powers in Europe (it's amazingly what Prussia achieved in History), so I think they should loose in most cases against semi-capable opponents..especially in Victoria.
About the actual set-up for Victoria: I have some complaints, too.....but that's not the point most posts in this thread referred to:


Janster didn't know about an easy way to keep plurality in check, how to avoid the liberal revolution and when he posted about his tariff settings (some posts later "40-40-40 on taxes no tarrifs almost"..... his opponents used higher tariffs...*hint*, *hint* ) I re-read his starting post:

"NOT possible"

Words I read quite often now in many threads.

It's not a shame when someone doesn't understand game mechanics to 100% (who does? I don't ) but using "NOT possible" when someone doesn't seem to be interested in applying what's already posted in tariff-related threads for example or when someone doesn't read the event-files.....this doesn't fit to the usage of words like "NOT possible"


When Janster reads this he may be interested in searching for "tariff" & my name but it's already posted by others on the actual page 1 now how to run an economy with tariffs mainly and get quite rich by NOT producing consumer goods....well, now he doesn't even need to search anymore since that's nearly the whole secret (still there are some tricks).
IT's just one of the tricks in Victoria...and his opponents apllied it

So: In comparison to his much more powerful opponents he decided to loose money on a daily basis and complained about it.

I just critized the usage of "NOT possible" especially in combination with "economy"

 

[iBaLkiD]

I'm not commenting anything which could happen in MP because everything could happen there and Prussia in 1836 was hardly a match for the major powers in Europe (it's amazingly what Prussia achieved in History), so I think they should loose in most cases against semi-capable opponents..especially in Victoria.
About the actual set-up for Victoria: I have some complaints, too.....but that's not the point most posts in this thread referred to:


Janster didn't know about an easy way to keep plurality in check, how to avoid the liberal revolution and when he posted about his tariff settings (some posts later "40-40-40 on taxes no tarrifs almost"..... his opponents used higher tariffs...*hint*, *hint* ) I re-read his starting post:

"NOT possible"QUOTE]


True, "Its not impossible" I wholeheartedly agree. Learning the innertrappings of game mechanics really does make a world of difference. I think Prussia starts with an ample supply of Factories. To badhalf of them need rare resources not easily aquired on the WM early on. Especially if two devious human oponents do not share these on the world market, making it even harder to procure for Prussia. A tactic or exploit? Either way it was a coy move by my opponents. Having my ally feed me money here and there is what kept me afloat and able to survive. Going bonkers on cultural techs and some quick land grabs with the aid of my ally brought my prestige up enough to remedy the problem somewhat.

My main gripe is the differences between MP and SP. I feel they both need to be treated differently to provide gamers with the most enjoyable experience. Again im not talking about uber-A-Historical changes. Just minor ones, primarily the opening, or game start, inregards to MP.

 

[ladner]

<SNIP>...

OT---

Options to simplify game mechanics would bring new gamers to the fold, i really dont understand Paradox's all or nothing approach to their games. The more flexible a game is playability wise(GAME OPTIONS, choices), the more diverse of a consumer base you will have. Thats a rant for another day tho...<SNIP>

I agree with this completely, it would be nice to have differing mechanics for the two game styles more detail, depth for single player, eased up game play for multiplayer. Also, beyond content changes, I think events should trigger differently in MP, not sure how exactly this could be implemented.

 

[unmerged(14078)]

I have a small tip/advice about Prussia. It comes with no guarantees.

Take one big farmer pop in Berlin and turn them into soldiers. The biggest pops there should be around 80'000 and this is enough for the army. Go around in the different provinces and turn the hundreds (ok, dozens ) of small soldier pops to farmers/labourers. In most provinces this will boost your production --> more to sell on WM and less imports--> more cash --> .

From having +10-20 i got +50-60 per day when i did this in all provinces, could have been more if i'd done it more carefully (see below). :wacko:

Might work for other countries too. But who cares about the "others" anyway.

Warning: In Provinces like Erfurt this can have catastrophic result for production: There are two 1000 labourer pops. When a third small labourer pop appears (because of demobilization) all these 3 pops will merge and this reduces the output of the RGO. For most provinces this increased the production, but a few had it reduced instead, so check the size of the labourer/farmer pops. If there are already 2 small (<5000) pops of the same nationality/religion as the soldier don't do this.

Hope it helps.

And yes, it's gamey.

 

[iBaLkiD]

So Klaus, are you going to become Uber Factoid man as you were at the HOI forums!

Damn, soon you will be beating all in your replies! :rofl:

I do like your strat but am wary of splitting such a large pop that can be turned into craftsmen and split into your factory by 80-20 when it reaches 100. Soon that 80 will split again into another 80-20 and so on. In most cases i would advise against this but in Prussia's case I believe it is viable. What about military spending tho?. How high does that jack your cost's up? Or is that 50-60+ figure include this? I must mess around with this. could be promising.

 

[unmerged(14078)]

So Klaus, are you going to become Uber Factoid man as you were at the HOI forums!

Damn, soon you will be beating all in your replies! :rofl:

I doubt it, HOI is more special than Vicky, and i don't know that much about Vicky so i ask more questions than i can answer.

I do like your strat but am wary of splitting such a large pop that can be turned into craftsmen and split into your factory by 80-20 when it reaches 100. Soon that 80 will split again into another 80-20 and so on. In most cases i would advise against this but in Prussia's case I believe it is viable. What about military spending tho?. How high does that jack your cost's up? Or is that 50-60+ figure include this? I must mess around with this. could be promising.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean but:

I did the changes in one day in 1838 and i went from having a surplus of 10-20 £ per day to 50-60 £ per day. This means i made around 40£ more per day because of the changes. That's 14'600 £ per year. Without reducing the total amount of manpower available to the military.

I didn't check the costs for military when i did this change, just how much money i made per day... I have the lowest possible spending for the Jingoism (30%).

Then when a war came close (All pile Russia ) i converted some mediumsize pops to soldiers and the big soldier pop was promoted to officer.

Since i produce my own paper, furniture and reg. clothes i only need to purchase tobacco, which is cheap, to transform pops to craftsmen. But you have a point about that pop splitting.

ps: the reason why i wasn't worried about the craftsmen is that had had 2 industrial disasters, so i didn't lack workforce. :wacko: These events is what make HOI more fun than Vicky and EU2.

 

[iBaLkiD]

Yeah, Im still playing both. More MP for HOI. Vicky has been more SP, tho i have gotten some MP gaming in with VickY of late, hard to find a consistent group of players. Have seen alot of HOI vets here tho so i think it will only get better with time. I even play a little EUII online from time to time.

HOI is my favorite for online play. Fairly easy to get a game going. Nothin like crushing Hapless Frenchmen under the treads of my superiority!


Long live HOI(Unless they make a HOI2!)

 

[Darkrenown]

Im pulling my Hair out. People please stop comparing SP with MP.

I was talking about MP in my post...

 

[iBaLkiD]

I was talking about MP in my post...

I was reffering to cpappa's post as well as a few others. Should have been more clear, sorry bout the confusion...

 

[Darkrenown]

Oh, I thought you meant mine too since you didn't reply and then were in a hair-tearing rage since no one was talking about MP

 

[unmerged(25722)]

Hi Janster:

I have been having many of the same issues as you have playing Prussia and can commiserate with you on this. A couple of things that can help is to sell off a couple of techs right at the start of the game and use the cash to build factories not dependant on sulfer. I agree that closing all the factories in the war/sulfer chain is a big help. Also, try attacking Denmark right off the bat. Move four divisions across from Denmark............they like to land there. Move all other troops next to Holstein. Do not mobilize, and keep military spending as low as possible. Declare war but do not accept help. Annex Holstein and then go and beat up on a completley unprepared Denmark.........they should offer peace withing a couple of months. I was even able to make money while doing this. You should be able to come out of this with four to five provinces and no war with Denmark later. As for the revolts.......having railroads in place is very important.........after the war with Denmark as soon as you can afford it buy Dragoons with arillery and Guard attachments as well as calvarly with any attachments with high shock value. Build a couple of small mobile corps of about 4-6 divisions and you should be able to handle all those uprisings.

I am new to this game but an enjoying it very much, however, Prussia is not setup very well. I think it would be almost impossible to succeed in a MP game. What is needed is to get rid of the existing factories and replace them with money making and non sulfur dependant industries. IE.....clothes, funiture. Then Prussia can spend its money on railroads and additional factories.

As for my POP's and no cash...........nothing I have been able to do has ever resulted in them having extra cash. Either I am missing something or there is a problem with the game.

I hear a lot of people complaining about the game and see some merit but I think Victoria is simply one of those games that is like learning to ride a bike. You can't.........you can't.........you can't.........you can.

If anyone has been able to put cash into the pockets of the Prussian people please let me know how. All other parts of the game work so far

We had recently a 3 player 1.03 game, and concluded after 4 games, that it is NOT possible to run a profitable Prussia in 1.03 ..same as 1.02 really.

Reasons.
There is no sulphur, this makes production in ammo,fertilizer,explosive and arty impossible...4 factories grounded ...an economic disaster!
This is not improved that this commodity grows even more scarce as time goes, need more of it in the world !

There is simply WAYYYYYY too much rebels, they STILL pop out of the woodwork...we can't be putting down 5-10k rebels 2-3 times a month for 30 years(1840-70), it NOT very funny. There is no money for social or any other reforms, thus the Prussian cannot use these to calm them storm.
Austria aswell must get less revolts, its simply thedious.

As for taking Paris, not possible, France is too strong...to hi-tech and too much everything..Russia is a juggernaut, altough I'm not uncomfortable with the idea, just as long as Prussia gets some more production going, and more money.

This is important, Prussia is one of the main contenders on the VIC scene, they cannot be left in this crippled state.

Janster

 

[iBaLkiD]

Oh, I thought you meant mine too since you didn't reply and then were in a hair-tearing rage since no one was talking about MP

Yeah the hair tearing rage lasted only until i ran out of hair. Then i was forced to calm down a bit. Just didnt see the logic in comparing SP experiences when the problem initially lodged was about MP Prussia.

Sometimes i drink too much coffee, and am bitter that i am forced to troll the forums while at work when i could be at home playing Vicky, Hoi, and EUII.

So i get testy,:wacko:

 

[Dinsdale]

Sometimes i drink too much coffee, and am bitter that i am forced to troll the forums while at work when i could be at home playing Vicky, Hoi, and EUII.

So i get testy,:wacko:

I feel your (caffinated) pain

Perhaps, rather than Prussia being too weak that the problem is Russia and Austria are able to industrialize far easier than they could historically.

The game is a bit biased toward number of PoPs, so in this environment, he who has the population wins.

Maybe production efficiency could be linked to literacy. That way, a small educated nation would still be able to equal or outperform a peasant society.

 

[Judge]

In my first Prussia game in 1,03 I am currently no 1 in 1905 despite two unsuccessful wars against the overpowered Russian bear. Had to release Poland as vassal to get a decent chance.

However Prussia is not in need of any dramatic changes but perhaps it should get slightly richer provinces in the 1836 scenario and it would be very nice if the BB points for the unification was toned down a bit. Having a high BB score drags you in to endless wars that reduce the fun factor a bit. Since I like others aren’t capable of modding I would like to see such a change in 1,04. Otherwise I think Paradox have made a great patch in 1,03

 

[Janster]

Greetings, I would like to thank Nebukadneser and PrussiaPete for their posts.

I have done a SP Prussia game now..it was far easier than our MP session as I kept on getting tons of machine parts, which made me able to turn my Prussia into a rather big economy by 1860, which I had all railroad level 2..

But this is from the point, in MP we're speaking of a much tougher challenge...as no machine parts nor sulphur come in any substantial quantities..

I have not understood completly the effects of tariffs, but ofen I operate with less = long run benefits ...more = short term benefits etc....

I managed to avoid the revolution, this will of course have a somewhat impact on Prussia's condition..and the understanding of these events...

Solving the economy problem WITHOUT taking Nassua or buying Jamaica (It's doable) is of course the question...selling some tech's early on...well maybe, but loss of prestige is not something Prussia should take lightly, as it seriously messes up their ability to navigate the world marked.

Also I would like to mention that bug with workers in factories, I always let the AI handle it, but sometimes I forcefully convert into factories, what the ledger says about output is always correct even if factories are wrong, it can even say it has 7 of 10 but inside there is 10 of 10 or sometimes 12-13 of 10 ...

Not sure if haveing more than max numbers will increase output hehe..

I appriciate the output on this question ,as Prussia is Vic's little bastard who might be the most challenging country in any Paradox game...who isn't a minor

Janster

 

[Darkrenown]

Maybe production efficiency could be linked to literacy. That way, a small educated nation would still be able to equal or outperform a peasant society.

Isn't the clerk production bonus linked to literacy?

 

[Derek Pullem]

Yes

 

[Darkrenown]

Yeah the hair tearing rage lasted only until i ran out of hair. Then i was forced to calm down a bit. Just didnt see the logic in comparing SP experiences when the problem initially lodged was about MP Prussia.

I guess they didn't read your post very carefully, there have been a lot of posts about Prussia being unplayable un SP recently.

 

[Darkrenown]

Yes

Well that was fast