Provinces of Slovakia

[unmerged(4848)]

Now that all provinces became known officially I wonder what the idea of Paradox has been behind the geographical breakdown of Slovakian prvinces, thinking of "The Munich Conference" event.

As far as We could learn it from King's AAR Fermany has at least 3 choices after having taken the Sudetenland. One of it should be to cede Slovakian terrirories to Hungary as it happened in the 1st Vienna Award in 1938.

But it seems totally impossible because of the province structure of Slovakia which consists of 5 provinces (Bratislava, Ruzomberok, Lucenec, Kosice, Munkacs). None of them is designed in a way that the historical decisions could be made. If you look at them, you'll see that the provinces divide Slovakia vertically, from north to south. The terrotories ceded to Hungary lie along the Slovakian-Hungarian border. Assumed that Germany cedes any province to Hungary, means that Slovakia would be split into two parts, which is absoluitely non-historical!

Fortunately it is not true in the case of the annexation Ruthenia after the forming of the Slovakian state in 1939, if this event is in HOI at all.

I just wonder why Hungary was designed again in so carelessly. Just have a look at the Suetenland or Memel : the borders of all these provinces were drawn in a way that Germany is able to have them as it happened historically.

P.S. I really can't understand why the capital of Hungary, Budapest is drwan between the Danube and Tisza. Just look at Prague, Warszawa or Paris. All of them are well placed + set behind a river representing an additional defence opportunity. Again, for Budapest it is not the case. Has anyone at Paradox heard of the 3rd longest siege of the European Theatre??? By the way, all the 7 bridges were destroyed by the Germans in December 1944. The right-side of the city (Buda) fell only 13rd February 1945.
NO COMMENT.

 

[Aetius]

The essential problem is that it is tricky to get a river (the Danube in this case) to run through a province rather than on the borders.

The problem of designing the provinces to fit historical events is that there are going to very large amounts of provinces in that case (in Europe). Just think about the 5 way split of Czechoslovakia: Germany, the rump state of Czechoslovakia (minus the Sudetenland), Slovakia, Hungary and Poland. There are many examples throughout Central Europe in this case, involving Yugoslavia, Albania, Bulgaria and Romania amongst others.
Then there are the proposed splits, e.g. the Yugoslav-Italian split of Albania, that never made it or the things like the wars in South America, which are now perhaps covered by a single province, but should be more provinces to make the war more interesting. As I said essentially this is a problem caused by predefining a province size, which will create fidelity problems unless there are a huge number of provinces. An extremely detailed map will on the other hand probably create other problems, like the research costs and the memory it consumes for the average gamer.

 

[Paradox Interactive]

Originally posted by Aetius
The essential problem is that it is tricky to get a river (the Danube in this case) to run through a province rather than on the borders.

With the current map engine it is not only tricky... It is Impossible to split a province in two.


P

 

[Aetius]

Originally posted by Patric
With the current map engine it is not only tricky... It is Impossible to split a province in two.


P

Look at North America, I believe the Bismark province is split in two (probably not a real river in that case but still)

 

[unmerged(4848)]

Originally posted by Aetius
The essential problem is that it is tricky to get a river (the Danube in this case) to run through a province rather than on the borders.

The problem of designing the provinces to fit historical events is that there are going to very large amounts of provinces in that case (in Europe). Just think about the 5 way split of Czechoslovakia: Germany, the rump state of Czechoslovakia (minus the Sudetenland), Slovakia, Hungary and Poland. There are many examples throughout Central Europe in this case, involving Yugoslavia, Albania, Bulgaria and Romania amongst others.
Then there are the proposed splits, e.g. the Yugoslav-Italian split of Albania, that never made it or the things like the wars in South America, which are now perhaps covered by a single province, but should be more provinces to make the war more interesting. As I said essentially this is a problem caused by predefining a province size, which will create fidelity problems unless there are a huge number of provinces. An extremely detailed map will on the other hand probably create other problems, like the research costs and the memory it consumes for the average gamer.

But it is clear that the "Munich Conference" event is included in HOI. Why to leave an integral and important part of Central Eurpean history out of scope? Don't forhet that Hungary is the only other country besides Gemany that were ceded territories in a peaceful way before WWII!

On the other hand, the setup of Slovakian provinces also could have been done more like from east to west, which would have solved the first Vienna Award problem.

And I don't think that drawing Budapest correctly on the map, thus to the Danube would have meant severe problems for anything In HOI...

 

[Jon Shafer]

You think Ruthenia is bad, check out how they did Transylvania.

 

[unmerged(4848)]

Originally posted by Trip
You think Ruthenia is bad, check out how they did Transylvania.

What do you mean by that exactly?
All I know is that in patch 1.01 "Hungary is given Transylvania and Munkacs provinces". But I wonder how does it work in the GC (hopefully 2nd Vienna Award) ?

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by zsolo
P.S. I really can't understand why the capital of Hungary, Budapest is drwan between the Danube and Tisza. Just look at Prague, Warszawa or Paris. All of them are well placed + set behind a river representing an additional defence opportunity. Again, for Budapest it is not the case. Has anyone at Paradox heard of the 3rd longest siege of the European Theatre??? By the way, all the 7 bridges were destroyed by the Germans in December 1944. The right-side of the city (Buda) fell only 13rd February 1945.

Actually, the better part of Warszawa lies on the western bank. For some reason, Paradox places it on eastern bank in all their games
(same for Kiev)

 

[unmerged(6905)]

Re: Re: Provinces of Slovakia

Originally posted by DarthMaur
Actually, the better part of Warszawa lies on the western bank. For some reason, Paradox places it on eastern bank in all their games
(same for Kiev)

In EU series Pest was on the west bank of the Danube, but in real life 100% of Pest is on the eastern bank.... (tha part of Budapest that on the western bank is Buda!)

 

[unmerged(4848)]

Re: Re: Provinces of Slovakia

Originally posted by DarthMaur
Actually, the better part of Warszawa lies on the western bank. For some reason, Paradox places it on eastern bank in all their games
(same for Kiev)

 

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by zsolo
What do you mean by that exactly?
All I know is that in patch 1.01 "Hungary is given Transylvania and Munkacs provinces". But I wonder how does it work in the GC (hopefully 2nd Vienna Award) ?

Okay, the main problem really isn't with what happens (I don't think), but the geography of what happens.

Compare these two maps...

This one is the historical map of Hungary, and the territorial gains it made during WWII with Germany's help:

And this is how it's represented in HOI:

You'd think they could make it look a LITTLE more accurate.

 

[Pokka]

Wow I don't even figure out what is the similarity between that 2 maps until I figure out those rivers

 

[unmerged(4848)]

Hungary' s territorial gains

Yes, you've got it! I can't really understand why geography could not have been taken more into consideration.

What is more imprtant for me that an important piece of history was stolen by slimply ignoring one of the results os the Munich Conference, insofar 1,1 million people - mostly of Hungarian origin - were ceded from Slovakia back to Hungary.

As a result of this + creation of Slovakia Hungary on 1st September 1939 looks like the following:


And please, who interested read the original text of the Munich Agreement:
[URL=http://www.net.hu/corvinus/lib/woja/woja19.htm]
As far as Hungary is concerned:

MUNICH AGREEMENT

Germany, the United Kingdom, France and Italy, taking into consideration the agreement, which has been already reached in prindple for the cession to Germany of the Sudeten German territory, have agreed on the following terms and conditions governing the said cession and the measures consequent thereon, and by this agreement they each hold themselves responsible for the steps necessary to secure its fulfilment:--

...

Annex to the Agreement

His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom and the French Government have entered into the above agreement on the basis that they stand by the offer, contained in paragraph 6 of the Anglo-French proposals of the 19th September, relating to an international guarantee of the new boundaries of the Czechoslovak State against unprovoked aggression.

When the question of the Polish and Hungarian minorities in Czechoslovakia has been settled, Germany and Italy for their part will give a guarantee to Czechoslovakia.


Declaration

The Heads of the Governments of the four Powers declare that the problems of the Polish and Hungarian minorities in Czechoslovakia, if not settled within three months by agreement between the respective Governments, shall form the subject of another meeting of the Heads of the Governments of the four Powers here present.


Supplementary Declaration

All questions which may arise out of the transfer of the territory shall be considered as coming within the terms of reference to the international commission.


Composition of the International Commission

The four Heads of Government here present agree that the international commission provided for in the agreement signed by them to-day shall consist of the Secretary of State in the German Foreign Office, the British, French and Italian Ambassadors accredited in Berlin, and a representative to be nominated by the Government of Czechoslovakia.


Adolf Hitler

Neville Chamberlain

Edouard Daladier

Benito Mussolini


Munich, September 29, 1938


British White Paper, No. 4, Cmd. 5848, London, H.M.S.0., 1938.


Lastly, please allow me to correct your "historical" map (I wonder why you found it). To be exact, hungary never gained back any territory from Austria. Or the heavily disputed territory of Eastern Bácska (Wojwodina).

 

[Jon Shafer]

Re: Hungary' s territorial gains

Originally posted by zsolo
Lastly, please allow me to correct your "historical" map (I wonder why you found it). To be exact, hungary never gained back any territory from Austria. Or the heavily disputed territory of Eastern Bácska (Wojwodina).

I know, I thought that looked a bit odd when I first saw it, but it was the first thing I found and it portrayed things accurately enough for the point I was trying to make.