Provences & Religion

[Belissarius]

I was playing a new game and it struck me that their are no events tied to holy sites.

Yes these are what if events but what if the christian world recaptured Jerusalem, or The moslem world takes over Rome.
Add Mecca, Medina and constantinople.

We know what happen with the fall of constaninople it caused an up roar in Europe (more in fear of the turks than any thing else) it also gave rise to the russian orthadox church. But would their not be an Up roar in the moslem world if mecca fell in the hands of christains? Also if jerusalem fall to christian hands would that not give a huge boost to that brand of christianity (Catholic, Orthadox, Prodestant, Reform)? sort of proof that god if with that type of christanity?

I bring this up because as the ottomans I took Rome and while the catholic world gets a casas belli against me it really struck me as an urealistic reaction to the result and then when I got a conversion of the heritics and rome is now sunni I thought for sure the christian world would really act in anger but nothing.

I would like to see events tied to the capture of Rome, medina, Mecca, and Jerusalem. And a second event with the conversion of said holy places.

Any thoughts?

 

[unmerged(9074)]

Dito!

 

[unmerged(9074)]

...and another thing about religion.
When I created the Kingdom of Jerusalem as a vassal out of conquered provinces the kindoms religion became catholic, as the Roman Empire I was of course orthodox.
Judea itself had arabic culture and sunni religion so I guess it's only logical...

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Kingdom of Jerusulem was a crusader kingdom. Wouldn't make any sense for them to be orthodox. The question is why you'd want those nasty latins around if you're Byzantium!

 

[suo]

They are even rebells from the Byzantine viewpoint. In the first crusade it was agreed that every teritorry the crusaders should take from the muslims that once was part of the Byzantine Empire shall be returned under the rule of the Emperor...

 

[unmerged(9074)]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Kingdom of Jerusulem was a crusader kingdom. Wouldn't make any sense for them to be orthodox. The question is why you'd want those nasty latins around if you're Byzantium!

I was conviced that the KoJ would be orthodox before I granted them vassalage!
Yes, yes the "original" KoJ was catholic, as the founders were catholic.
This should be corrected in the game.
If you grant vassalage they should omitt the same faith, anything else is historically incorrect!

 

[unmerged(6159)]

The correction that would be best is that Byzantines can't grant independence to Kingdom. An orthodox Kingdom of Jerusulem makes no sense, Jerusulem should be part of the Empire.

 

[unmerged(9074)]

Of course you're right Isaac.
I just tried to seize the opportunity to make someone else spend time and money to convert the Middle East for me...
I intended to diploannex them later!

 

[Belissarius]

Do we have to make seperate events for every possible nation that takes these holy sites? or can we target them to just the provences?

 

[unmerged(5664)]

There is a trigger for ANY country that owns a province, but apparently it doesn't work. In that case you need a specific event for every country that might own those provinces.

BarristerBoy

 

[Jayavarman]

Originally posted by BarristerBoy
There is a trigger for ANY country that owns a province, but apparently it doesn't work. In that case you need a specific event for every country that might own those provinces.

BarristerBoy

Don't think that it would be too hard...

 

[Belissarius]

So is this something we want to pursue? If so what effects should there be?

I think that taking a holy site should be a huge negative towards the owner of that site. I also think that If you convert said site that you should be effected by a second set of negative effect but that random provences of the holy sites original releigion change to the country's state religion. When I say random I mean truely random as in not excluseively the provences of the country that now ownes the holy site.

My rational is that in the wars of religion gaining these site could convince others that god is truely on the side that captures and converts these sites.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Originally posted by BarristerBoy
There is a trigger for ANY country that owns a province, but apparently it doesn't work. In that case you need a specific event for every country that might own those provinces.

BarristerBoy

It does work if the event is random.

 

[unmerged(7564)]

The events I posted above are designed to reflect violent reactions of christians in the event of a Muslim nation taking Rome, and the reactions of Muslims in the event of Christians taking Jerusalem, Medina, or Mekkah.

None of the events I posted above have been tested, and I am not sure if I will get a chance to do so soon. However, please feel free to use and/or abuse them as you please, or comment if you are not adverse to wading thru them.

I am afraid that they are lengthy and repetitive since they illustrate multiple nations reactions to their respective holy sites being invaded.

Could be that EU would just crash with so much going on at once (like the English HYW victory events?), but I will find out when I can. (Unfortunately, I've not had so much time to play EU lately).
Thanks,

 

[Guinnessmonkey]

These seem pretty good to me. I'll try to test them tomorrow.

I really like the idea of a hornets nest being stirred up if one of the holy cities fall.

These events could make an out of control Ottoman player think twice before annexing Rome. It's one thing to vassalize the Pope but its something entirely different to kick him out of the vatican.

Speaking of which... It might also be nice to have events for Muslim states for what to do to the Pope when you take Rome, kinda like the events around the fall of Constantinople and the fate of the Patriarch. If the Pope is exiled or killed this would necessitate another event determining the new seat of the Papacy. (Spain has established a new Papacy in Madrid. Should we accept it or establish a rival papacy in Paris?, etc.)

Anyone else feel this would be worth the time? Any ideas on how it should be done?

 

[unmerged(2456)]

I think option 2 on every one either needs to be dropped or more balanced otherwise no ones gonna choose it so what's the point in having it.

Also why in some do you have 'control' and others you have 'owned'?

For atleast the ME ones i would add China and any major hindu nation (i've seen china make inroads into ME before).

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Also are you going to add any new events to deal with conversions of those sites now that paradox has added province-religion triggers? For Rome, it should be for any religion other than Caltholic (as CRC is not province religion). For the rest, anything other than Sunni or Shiite.

 

[unmerged(7564)]

Thanks for the comments guys

Guinnessmonkey:
Not sure how the fate of the patriach event works offhand, I will check it out. I will think a bit about that and what to do if the papacy is established elsewhere. Were you thinking of event effects or an outright new papal state somewhere? Any recommendations? I think I would prefer the event effects approach since 'papal indedepence' is established again with the events above... FRA & SPA/CAS seem to be pretty good candidates for that.

Jinnai:
Option 2 - In my opinion, option 2 is fine as is. How many good choices does a ruler have if a holy site that many people go bananas about is captured, and he refuses to do anything about it? As far as balance- well, I think the AI is less likely to trigger these than a player, so this is really geared more to provoke a reaction from the AI when a player pulls one of these stunts. In addition, if occupied with other matters, I might take the stability hit and revolts just so I don't have to fool with the whole thing.

Control vs. Owned - Perhaps I misjudged, but I used controled with Medina and Mekkah because I thought that Islamic nations would be more sensitive to incursions there than in other places. If a christian had the temerity to raid there, than be it on his own head. (I think there is a sort of precedent for this, a mere raid of Medina/Mekkah area staged by Reginald de Chatillion seemed to provoke a greater response than the original capture of Jerusalem. In fact, to this day I think there are differences in sensitivity regarding those areas. Just my opinion though).

China - I can add that. I haven't seen this happen before, so do you have other nations specifically in mind? Let me know...

Conversion - Good idea, I had not thought of it yet, especially because I had forgotten about the province-religion triggers. Do you think it is worth it after theoretically having to endure these events? I am just tired after writing these

Thanks

Edit: If you try these out, I hope it goes O.K., as I said, I've not even had a chance to see if these things load all right, much less test them.

Edit: The events above do load all right as posted, and apparently have no conflicts with the current eep as far as i.d. #'s, etc. Further testing to come...

 

[Guinnessmonkey]

Oh, no. I was just thinking of event effects, some way to simulate the political chaos the loss of Rome would cause in catholic Europe. Several nations would scurry for the honor of hosting/creating the new papacy, which would cause dissention among the new crusader states. After all, the Islamic capture of Rome would, in effect, end the independence of the Papacy. It would be, much like it was towards the end of the EUII period, completely beholden to the great powers of Europe.

BTW, does

"command = { type = independence which = PAP }"

make for a completely independent Rome or a vassal state? I hope the latter, as most of the powers of europe would want to capitalise on their role of freeing Rome.

Anyway, keep up the good work.

 

[unmerged(7564)]

Originally posted by Guinnessmonkey


BTW, does

"command = { type = independence which = PAP }"

make for a completely independent Rome or a vassal state? I hope the latter, as most of the powers of europe would want to capitalise on their role of freeing Rome.

Anyway, keep up the good work.

It makes a vassal state. Seemed the most appropriate effect (people or competitors clamoring for reinstatement of Rome/Papal State, but said state still being beholden to the one who freed Rome...

Thanks!