Reminder that the great Constantinople fell in 1453 A.D. to the Turks, that being another reason for the European powers seeing the uses of alternate sources of goods, riches and so on.
Also, Alba gu bràth.
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Protestantism spawn too early ; Reform era is too long
- Thread starter Blust
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Reminder that the great Constantinople fell in 1453 A.D. to the Turks, that being another reason for the European powers seeing the uses of alternate sources of goods, riches and so on.
Also, Alba gu bràth.
I beg to differ. The Age of Reformation has two very good bonuses (-25% WS cost vs wrong religion & +1 siege) and two situationally good (+ prestige p/dev & +institution spread).
The WS cost and the institution spread, in particular, are very good for any ROTW nation. However, its Age goals are harder to complete if you aren't playing on Europe.
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It depends on what you mean by "the people". In most places it was the nobility and theologians who provided the first impetus. For instance Denmark started going Protestant under folks like Hans Tausen and there was sufficient popular support that when Frederick I died the nobility were unable to choose between the Catholic and Lutheran sons and delayed the coronation for a year (the deposed Christian II also backed the Lutheran cause because he though it would make him popular). And the evangelicals in places like Malmo backed the Protestants before the crown.
In Sweden you had folks like Olaus Petri going forth first and if memory serves the Riksdag had a substantial number of nobles willing to dispossess the Catholic church of her wealth.
In general, the pattern was that Protestantism was supported by the burghers, the nobles, and some of the academics. The bastions of Catholicism were the peasantry and the general clergy.
Prior to going full Lutheran, the Church practices were often wildly unpopular. The annates ensured that important church fiefs were open only to the nobility and that those resident on Church land could expect higher taxes for the sale of title. Likewise, placing priests outside of secular justice could upset those who were owed money or had been wronged by an affair or violence.
Frankly it would be historical for the same event to have different outcomes in different countries. Sometimes the populace supported practices in one place and opposed them in another. Sometimes the cities went Protestant and sometimes it was the landed nobles. Sometimes it was even the clergy were the primary partisans of the Reformation.
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Obviously I didn't mean just the king and his immediate family or anything silly like that. Nobility, important and powerful people, the most rich traders etc...
My point was that the mechanics as is, looks more like some kind of mass-spreading to the whole population instead of it generally being focused on the higher ranked and more powerful people adopting it and it then spreading into the normal population as time follows.
Part of that is that the game doesn't distinguish between different classes of people in provinces, so if it is Protestant, or Sunni, or Reformed or something else then that is 100% total. Instead of say the higher ranking people adopting it or vice versa... I know people have talked in other threads about a pop system, but I would already be happy about a layered system where each province has peasants, burghers, clergy and nobility...
I am curious, do you know of any cases where the poor peasant population converted to Protestantism, Reformed etc... to a large degree and forced it upon the leadership? From what I understand, the lower-class people tended to be unable to really force anything unless they had support from the upper-class as seen with say the Peasants Wars..
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I think it has the worst best age ability. I'd take -10% ae, admin eff, and no coring restriction over the ws cost.
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More tags isn't a bad thing. Just adjust the MTTH to account for new tags. Or adjust it so that these events don't fire in non-theocracy OPMs
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I disagree with -10% AE being the best Age 1 ability. I think subject transfer is much more valuable.
It is important to view the Age abilities within their timeframe. -10% AE is very good but you don't have much time to make use of it nor the ADM to go on a rampage. Pre-1500 most tags don't expand that fast for 10% AE reduction to be amazing. This bonus would be much stronger if you could get it from any other Age.
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Remember, the Protestant Reformation is not some holy man claiming new revelation from the divine and writing new scriptures that the masses find compelling (e.g. something akin to Sikhism), it is people saying that previously extant written works must be hewed to more closely and only those things written down or derived from that writing are valid.
This means that the only people who can say "What does it mean to be Protestant" are the literate (this is actually the single biggest reason in all of history why the world is trending heavily toward mass universal literacy). Pretty much by definition you could not be Protestant without someone literate to lead you in proper study of the Bible. Pretty much universally this meant that the educated led the Reformation.
However we can go with Zurich as a popularly moved Reformation. While Zwingli clearly lead the Reforming faction, the disputations were open to pretty much all the residents of the city and we have documentation of hundreds attending and the Reformation in Zurich appears to have been popular with the lowest rungs of Zurich society.
We could also talk about the Waldensians who arose as a heresy several centuries earlier but maintained their unique theology that they later decided was Reformed and basically voted to join the whole Reformation.
The other thing we have to recall is that there were a lot of nobles whose only path forward to greater power was taking it from someone else. For a desperate noble, backing the heretics was the best option they had and it was virtually impossible in those days to for the religious and secular ambitions not to comingle. If a movement ever got strong enough, some noble would take the gamble and lead it. And this was true for pretty much any rebellion against the status quo, there was always some minor nobility who ride any revolution towards the top (e.g. Lenin was a very minor Russian noble).
So ultimately, the normal course of Protestantism was to begin with somebody who had undertaken serious biblical studies. They would write down their ideas which would impact the literate and only once some literate folks were on board (e.g. from the top 10% or so of society) would it move out to the rest of the populace. Nonetheless we do have places like Zurich where common folk of the city appear to have simply acclaimed Protestantism from the start.
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You are not wrong, but please refer here for a theological analysis in addition to a historical one.
very simple solution: Bind reformation desire incrase to catholic provinces of event owner.
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Normally subject transfer works better as the second ability. I find I can pick off more major subjects if I have the AE reduction online first (particularly if I have some other AE reduction from being papal controller, a horde, or a NI). Typically you cannot integrate that many subjects or hold that many sub
A lot of Catholic practices were very unpopular with the masses, the theologians, and even the Catholic synods both before and after the Reformation. Pretty much all of early Protestant theology had been espoused by some sect earlier on. The Hussites, the Waldensians, the Lollards, all of them had theological issues with Rome, but in the main they remained local affairs because the ability of Hus, Wycliffe, or Waldo to deliver their ideas to the masses was exceptionally limited. Once you had the printing press the worst excesses of the church, plus whatever could be reasonably fabricated, become easy reading, and spread far beyond linguistic or cultural borders. Few of the Protestant critiques were truly unique, but this time the theological tensions of Catholic Christendom could not be repressed.
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What I am getting from this discussion is that the age bonus last for too little.
The problem don´t seems to be the fact that the reformation centers spawn earlier than intended, and last longer.
I do agree.
The problem don´t seems to be the fact that the reformation centers spawn earlier than intended, and last longer.
I do agree.
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True and true (Dante placed a Pope in Hell still during the Middle Ages after all). I am just worrie matters of doctrine and faith that were more pictoresque to the Protestant-Reformed-Anglican reformers may be oversimplified. A issue I have with a more "Historical Materialist" approach to the topic. And that is all I have to say about that.
It's just a joke at this point : 1492, year of Columbus ? Nope, year of Martin Luther.
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Doesn't Morocco have a malus to charters? Also Portugal is an easy long term alliance and PU so don't nick colonies
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One more point in favor of my belief that Russia is actually ROTW.
But I argue that the main issue of the Age of Revolution is that same of its tasks are rather difficult to complete. Namely that stupid "Unite your culture group" abomination.
To be fair, in EU4 the year of Columbus is more like 1475.
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I've seen the reformation start before 1480 in games now with all the extra catholic tags added driving up reform desire.
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Paris and Montpellier in my country went Protestant in 1480 pretty much ruining my save and ending my patience with Paradox.
They try too hard with semi-realistic events that they think add immersion but are actually just plain annoying. The Dutch Revolts are up there too.
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I think you meant Age of Reformation, not Revolutions.
Come to think, I'd also put Russia as RoTW because they have one hell of a time getting institutions.
Oh yes, Unite your culture group is silly hard and outright impossible for nearly every culture group. I'd rank that as the hardest amongst all Age Goals.