Protectorate frustration

[unmerged(177849)]

I've mostly avoided dealing with protectorates - first as Russia and now as Austria. But As Austria now pushes into Asia I have no choice and am getting very frustrated.

Crimea, as it often seems to, is a protectorate of Lithuania and ally of the Ottomans - something that, as I understand it, shouldn't happen. But that's not the problem.

But I am currently in a war with the Ottomans and Crimea. I can make a separate peace with Crimea. Lithuania is at peace. I have fully occupied Crimea, but the protectorate option is grayed out.

Is this because they are a protectorate of Lithuania? If so, can I EVER do anything aside from taking provinces one by one from them? There's no option to force a nation to release a protectorate, and, from what I have read, the "support indepenadance" option doesn't really work.

Somewhat similar issue with Kazan - though they are not allied with anyone - they are Russia's protectorate, and if I decelare war on them I cannot make a separate peace with them.

What's the strategy for dealing with other nation's protectorates?

 

[Tub]

I've mostly avoided dealing with protectorates - first as Russia and now as Austria. But As Austria now pushes into Asia I have no choice and am getting very frustrated.

Crimea, as it often seems to, is a protectorate of Lithuania and ally of the Ottomans - something that, as I understand it, shouldn't happen. But that's not the problem.

But I am currently in a war with the Ottomans and Crimea. I can make a separate peace with Crimea. Lithuania is at peace. I have fully occupied Crimea, but the protectorate option is grayed out.

Is this because they are a protectorate of Lithuania? If so, can I EVER do anything aside from taking provinces one by one from them? There's no option to force a nation to release a protectorate, and, from what I have read, the "support indepenadance" option doesn't really work.

Somewhat similar issue with Kazan - though they are not allied with anyone - they are Russia's protectorate, and if I decelare war on them I cannot make a separate peace with them.

What's the strategy for dealing with other nation's protectorates?

The strategy? There is no strategy. Protectorates are retarded. There's no way to force release them, no way to release them diplomatically, and if ANY AI nation borders a protectorate-able nation, they will almost definitely protectorate it. It's so dick-clenchingly stupid - and to pour more urine-soaked salt on the gaping, infected wound, vassals can not only make protectorates, but will defend them when you attack the undeveloped nation.

I love everything else about Conquest of Paradise, but this honestly makes me not want to play.

tldr; There's no way to guard against protectorates. Looks like you'll have to take them piecemeal from Lithuania.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Well in this case Crimea had eaten Astrakastan, so I released that and they are now my protectorate. So I solved 50% of the problem.

As for the rest, Lithuania is down to 4 provinces. I was going to vasslize them, but now I think I'll annex & release instead, which should solve the other half of the problem.

But it doesn't look like it will always be that easy, e.g., Kazan is Russia's protectorate, and, while I've smashed Russia but good, it was not before they colonized Siberia extensively, so they will be around a while.

Edit - I also have a tactical reason to take one province from Crimea (couldn't in the last war as Astrakastran required 100% war score). So it may take 2 wars. Some risk I guess that someone else will protectorate them in the mean time, but the only bordering nation that isn't me or my vassals is Georgia (that's why I need a provicne from Crimea, to border Georgia and get a CB).

 

[BloodySoap]

I'm having similar frustrations with protectorates as Hungary. In a game I started about 2 weeks ago, I accepted a CTA from Austria, who was an attacker in a war against Poland. It didn't seem like a big deal, since Poland was only allied with some pretty insignificant states, including Crimea.

A few months later, Crimea becomes a protectorate of Russia, who then automatically joins the war for some reason, even though they had no previous relations to any of the war members. To add to this, Russia now becomes the war leader on the Polish side. It wouldn't be that big of a problem if it wasn't for Russia's "HAHAHAH, F**K YOU" national ideas, which brought around 250k extra soldiers into the war, to a total of (if I remember correctly) about 350k on their side, with only around 150k on our side, most of them from me.

Could someone please remind me, what exactly is the point of protectorates in this game as of now? Is it Paradox's way of saying, "Oh, you were having fun with this game? Sorry, that's not allowed here," or is it a failed attempt to embellish the game?

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of protectorates and I think that, given time and attention, they could definitely become an enjoyable and useful feature of the game. But as of right now, they are, in my opinion and from what I've experienced, broken and somewhat useless.

 

[PedroVargas]

vassals can not only make protectorates, but will defend them when you attack the undeveloped nation.

It's really one of the more stupid things about protectorates (and there are many). I was playing Russia, had Ukraine as a vassal - and they declared Crimea their protectorate. We were in many wars against them, they are my rival enemy. And my vassal takes them as a protectorate? Had to annex the Ukrainians first which delayed my expansion. If at least becoming a protectorate would have meant for Crimea to cancel their alliance with the Ottomans, I would have a s light profit from all this, but no such luck.

 

[xyra]

You can still use the garbish protectorates for your progress.

If kasan is a russian protectorate, attack russia. there you'll only fight russian soldiers as kasan doesn't participate. however you can walk in kasan provinces if you want. you'll need a crushing victory to proceed with the next cheesy step:
DOW kasan right after the peace. You'll be at war with russia again, however as russia shouldn't have lots of troops you'll usually only fight kasan in the beginning.

Best use is vasselfeeding.

 

[Tub]

You can still use the garbish protectorates for your progress.

If kasan is a russian protectorate, attack russia. there you'll only fight russian soldiers as kasan doesn't participate. however you can walk in kasan provinces if you want. you'll need a crushing victory to proceed with the next cheesy step:
DOW kasan right after the peace. You'll be at war with russia again, however as russia shouldn't have lots of troops you'll usually only fight kasan in the beginning.

Best use is vasselfeeding.

Except they're not vassals, and never will be if they become too large...

 

[xyra]

Except they're not vassals, and never will be if they become too large...

the best use was meant for the cheesy part of protectorate-wars.

Aka:
1. Declare war on spain, get aragon province. Release aragon as vassel.
2. declare war on a spains protectorate demand provinces of aragon from spain.
3. procede with step 2 for every protectorate of spain until aragon is restored.

that way aragon can be restored within less the 5 years.

Or use against denmark after they annexed sweden and norway.
or against moscovy
or the ottomans
or who ever has some dead cores that will be vassels for you and at least on protectorate.

that's way best use of protectorates is vasselfeeding. (of course not feeding the protectorates)

 

[svelenael]

Yep, there should be some option to End Protectorate, or even Transfer it !

And also, what should be fixed is the release as vassal thingy.
I was playing Poland and took half of Crimea in a war, the provinces of which the GH had cores, and then after peace I clicked the "Release as Vassal" button, but no, for some reason they were released as a Protectorate.
This makes no sense to me.
I'm fine with the idea of taking protectorates for easy trade when you are busy fighting in Europe anyway, but when you already own the provinces it should never happen. Plus now I have to loose stability to take it back.

 

[odkragli]

I got my Russia play ruined yesterday. I had Kazan, Nogai and Oirath horde as protectorates.
DOW Chagatai (wanted to annex them to get early access to india for indian achievement). Didnt realize what they being alied to my protectorates.
Bang. Protectorates lost, 70k steppe horde running across whole my country.

 

[frolix42]

The strategy? There is no strategy. Protectorates are retarded. There's no way to force release them, no way to release them diplomatically, and if ANY AI nation borders a protectorate-able nation, they will almost definitely protectorate it. It's so dick-clenchingly stupid -

I agree with you 100% here. A good use of a protectorate would be to save it to eat later. You should not take -1 stab. hit to release a protectorate. Perhaps if a protectorate automatically became a vassal once it westernized.

...and to pour more urine-soaked salt on the gaping, infected wound, vassals can not only make protectorates, but will defend them when you attack the undeveloped nation.

Are you certain? My colonial subject Florida had Chicasaw as a Protectorate. I attacked Chicasaw (as Spain) and Florida did not defend it's Protectorate. My friend had a PU over Lithuania and attacked Crimea, which was a protectorate of Lithuania. Lithuania didn't defend Crimea. This seems like it's working logically, I don't know why a vassal would protect it's protectorate against it's suzerain, it should not.

 

[xyra]

Yes they defend their protectorate.

 

[frolix42]

Yes they defend their protectorate.

Since PUs and Colonial subjects don't, or at least don't sometimes, vassals defending their protectorates is an oversight.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Yeah, I know about the cheeses with protectorates. They don't help with getting the protectorate for yourself, and don't really make the situation better (i.e., that's another flaw of protectorates, not a good feature balancing the bad).

But I realize now - not sure how I missed it - you CAN transfer the protectorate with a 100% war score against the parent. It MAY require 100% war score AND fully occupying the protectorate, which I what I did. Of course an expensive option, and virtually impossible when you are fighting a Russia that has expanded massively into Siberia.

 

[kvk]

A protectorate shouldn't be like a vassal, let us be able to do both if we want to (and make protectorates a bit more like a guarantee of independence or something like it instead of a broken vassalage)