Protecting transport fleets in an invasion

[Monarch1st]

This makes no sense, and help and a search aren't helpful.
I've got four u.s. fleets in a sector, 3 cv fleets (4 cv, 8 dd), and one assault ship fleet with only assault ships in it. They're invading a pacific island with japanese marines on it, and some japanese fleets appearing every once in a while.
The problem is, the transport fleet is often targeted alone. Even if the japanese got extra lucky, halsey would only take one fleet off doing irrelevant things. The transport fleet should only be engaged when all other fleets have been sunk. Iirc, that's how it worked in HoI 2.

So how do you protect a transport fleet, especially while invading an island?

 

[markkur]

Some players like to separate transports and warships and then place the war-fleets in all the zones around the landing. I usually have a transport-fleet with half as many DDs, CLs or both and then will use a serious war-fleet on standby to intercept if I see an enemy fleet approach and I usually never have any problems.

 

[Monarch1st]

Holy toledo! That's some resource-intensive solution! I need to make a quit a few more cv fleets then.

(How did everyone let Paradox get away with it, rather than implementing a rather simple and common sense fix? That's not like them. Did they have some mixed-up theory that someone came up with off the top of their head that they weren't willing to let go of?)

Thanks for the help!

 

[confinement]

Not really sure, but one of the issues may be that your CV fleets should have the positioning and speed to avoid direct contact with a surface fleet. Your transport fleet probably can't get out of the way. However, your CV fleets should at least be bombing the crap out of the enemy.

 

[markkur]

Holy toledo! That's some resource-intensive solution! I need to make a quit a few more cv fleets then.

Not really. I don't build massive and numerous landing fleets. I think the problem you are having atm is the Japanese CVs. I played my first game as the USA and early war their fleets (CAGS) were a royal pain you know where. Once you start cranking out modern and plentiful CVs you'll start turning the tide. But it is frustrating for a while. One tactic is very good to use and that's "scout-vessels" Subs and DDs on patrol can give you a head's up when you have TFs heading your way. And then depending, you can intercept of flee.

 

[Palmerdale]

I've seen the same problem as Italy, where the UK fleet seems to ignore all the stacked warships in the area (and the surrounding areas) and target the transports exclusively. There definitely seems to be something about the targeting algorithm and patrol / intercept algorithms that isn't working as one would expect. In my most recent game, I lost 4xTransports on an invasion with the Italian main fleet (or its remnants anyway), 3 fleets of screens and 2 sub fleets active trying to protect the assault (total around 18 ships on missions in and around the target area -- plus land based air cover on air superiority missions). I hope those Marines could swim.

 

[Monarch1st]

...Your transport fleet probably can't get out of the way. However, your CV fleets should at least be bombing the crap out of the enemy.

That they are, that they are!

 

[marxianTJ]

I tend to opt for a mix of all 3. Just put 4 DDs/4 TP/LC and have that be the transport fleet - or expand it at a 1:1 ratio as needed. They sails around on its own but I *always* have at least one battle fleet near by to intervene on their behalf should they get caught. NAV are nice too.

You don't necessarily have to surround them with *real* warships - just strap some CLs and CAs together or some DDs or submarines together and have that be your circle around the invasion zone - then have a CTF or SAG waiting somewhere nearby - then if somebody starts to come inside the ring you do mortal battle on the high seas. For that part it's actually somewhat realistic.

You could also go the dangerous route and just leave them be - and then if they get attacked send in your battlefleet, take the massive positioning penalty, and lose a few screens if you get hit with a doom stack lol. SAGs tend to work better in this role since the TPs are moving *forward* and the BBs and their screens will be as well - so they have more plentiful targets, whereas with a CTF they're moving in opposite directions.

 

[Monarch1st]

(this multi-quote "feature" (aka volkswagen) doesn't work, so here's what I'm responding to: )
"I think the problem you are having atm is the Japanese CVs. I played my first game as the USA and early war their fleets (CAGS) were a royal pain you know where. Once you start cranking out modern and plentiful CVs you'll start turning the tide." ..."One tactic is very good to use and that's "scout-vessels" ... can give you a head's up when you have TFs heading your way. And then depending, you can intercept of flee."

It is very late as far as research goes, and the war is just getting cranked up. Four of the five cv fleets I have, everything is model '46 or later, so that's not the problem.
As the next guy says, and as I said at first, the algorithm is just messed up. As you can tell, I'm just learing hoi 3, having come from hoi 2 (which I still play occasionally. it's hard to get away from something you know so well!) While I like some aspects of hoi 3, I'm starting to think they didn't put as much time and effort into this as they did hoi 2.
And transports that are hosting an invasion cannot flee. It's just common sense that the escorting fleets protect the transports at all costs. When Halsey lost his mind and went after the toothless decoy fleet, Taffy 3 sacrificed themselves to protect the transports, and against overwhelming odds turned back the Japanese battleships. In the Paradox world, often Halsey, and Spruance, and King, and Nimitz, and all the Taffy's, and everyone else goes after the decoys and no one protects the transports.
Nope. Plain and simple, Paradox messed up. And didn't correct it. But looks like there's one or two ways around it.

 

[markkur]

And transports that are hosting an invasion cannot flee.

I meant avoid engagement by leaving when your scouts reveal approaching enemy fleets.

 

[StanCollins]

I meant avoid engagement by leaving when your scouts reveal approaching enemy fleets.

I'm not sure this is broken just because we don't like what it does. Look at it this way, you've got an under-strength garrison facing an invasion. Which is more dangerous to your garrison, the ships or the troops in the transports? If I were the naval commander, I'd go after the transports, too, wouldn't you?

 

[Monarch1st]

I meant avoid engagement by leaving when your scouts reveal approaching enemy fleets.

Sure, that was clear. My point is a transport fleet that is being used to invade cannot flee. Otherwise the invasion will be called off.

 

[Monarch1st]

...If I were the naval commander, I'd go after the transports, too, wouldn't you?

Of course. The attacker needs to get the transports. My point is, it's the duty of the fleets protecting the transports is to place themselves between the attacking fleet and the transports. It's his duty to protect the transports at all costs. When he does that, the transports should not be able to be touched until every single ship in every single escorting fleet has been sunk. And when the attacker is outnumbered 5 to 1 without a technological advantage, he can't get thru. Not unless the attacker is one of the greatest military geniuses of history, and the escorting commander shouldn't even be driving a car. And that didn't happen in the war.
There are times when the attacker might be able to sucker one fleet away from the transports. C.f. the Battle of Leyte Gulf which I keep referring to. Even when Halsey left to go after the decoy fleet, there were still escorts protecting the transports. They did their duty and sacrificed themselves at impossible odds. Their example is the duty of every sailor on every escorting ship of every fleet protecting transports. But the idea that all responsible commanders of all the fleets protecting transports could be suckered like that is so remote it's not within the realm of common sense possibility.
But in HoI3, it happens frequently. The algorithm is seriously flawed.

 

[StanCollins]

Of course. The attacker needs to get the transports. My point is, it's the duty of the fleets protecting the transports is to place themselves between the attacking fleet and the transports. It's his duty to protect the transports at all costs. When he does that, the transports should not be able to be touched until every single ship in every single escorting fleet has been sunk. And when the attacker is outnumbered 5 to 1 without a technological advantage, he can't get thru. Not unless the attacker is one of the greatest military geniuses of history, and the escorting commander shouldn't even be driving a car. And that didn't happen in the war.
There are times when the attacker might be able to sucker one fleet away from the transports. C.f. the Battle of Leyte Gulf which I keep referring to. Even when Halsey left to go after the decoy fleet, there were still escorts protecting the transports. They did their duty and sacrificed themselves at impossible odds. Their example is the duty of every sailor on every escorting ship of every fleet protecting transports. But the idea that all responsible commanders of all the fleets protecting transports could be suckered like that is so remote it's not within the realm of common sense possibility.
But in HoI3, it happens frequently. The algorithm is seriously flawed.

Are you saying that the fleets supposed to be protecting the landings actually left the sea province where the invasion was taking place? If yes, are you sure you got them there with a "Move To" rather than a "Patrol" command? I only ask because I've never seen that happen in any of my games. And, I've never seen a fleet go off chasing after an outside attacker.

 

[Monarch1st]

No, not in the game.
In the game, five full carrier fleets sitting near (in the same sector) the transport fleet said "hey, there go few enemy ships. isn't that nice." and watched them go by and did nothing. Multiple times.

 

[Skolider]

whenever I do invasions I will send a SAG to the region my transports will be invading from and RARELY will I lose a transport, but I also tend to stack 3-4 BB and 6-8 DD in my SAG so that may play a role in the results...

 

[StanCollins]

No, not in the game.
In the game, five full carrier fleets sitting near (in the same sector) the transport fleet said "hey, there go few enemy ships. isn't that nice." and watched them go by and did nothing. Multiple times.

Like Skolider, I always use a SAG to cover my transports during an invasion. Not only do you get the shore bombardment benefit, but they will also engage any enemy ships in range. Do you have the CAGs in your carrier fleets assigned to any specific tasks (air intercept, ground attack, etc.)? If so, I believe they will not abandon those tasks to attack a fleet. Also, the I believe the escorts for the carriers will not abandon them to go after the enemy fleet.

 

[Count Blue]

No, not in the game.
In the game, five full carrier fleets sitting near (in the same sector) the transport fleet said "hey, there go few enemy ships. isn't that nice." and watched them go by and did nothing. Multiple times.

Did you reserach Spotting? (Naval Doctrine Tree) Maybe have a"spotter" Admiral attached? That might help I guess. There are more doctrines and techs that amplify your spotting qualities for the differnt classes of ships. Your Radar tech levl also plays a role maybe.

 

[Kovax]

I've gotten excellent results by using a combination of a carrier and a conventional capital ship, each with its own escorts, in an adjacent province or two. Adding a faster independent CL/DD group on Patrol can boost the odds of engaging. I also place either subs or DDs in a few nearby sea provinces to increase the odds of early detection of any enemy attempts to interfere with the landing, so my protective fleets can intervene. If/when the enemy sends a fleet through the neighboring province, I have at least 2 of my own fleets waiting, and then launch land or carrier-based attacks on that fleet to boost the odds of my surface ships engaging. As a last resort, I have a couple of CLs or DDs with the TPs, and at least one or two "spare" TPs to sacrifice if the enemy manages to slip something past my screening fleets. Most importantly, I'd rather break off a landing attempt and try again a month or two later than lose the transports and troops aboard them.

The point is that the TPs are "sitting ducks", and can't evade. Since range is calculated as a random scatter from an "ideal" position (and then modified), and TPs are usually well within gun range of the larger capital ships at the start (which is WRONG for several reasons), they're the "weakest" targets, and quickly destroyed. In a stand-up "tabletop" battle, where you're TRYING to engage and sink the enemy fleet with your TPs and everything else (regardless of the "campaign" costs), it makes some twisted parody of sense, but in the more likely case where your other ships should be screening the TPs and their valuable cargo, it doesn't work at all.

I don't agree that the TPs should be the absolute last things to be engaged, because the opponent would normally attempt to push a few units PAST your screening force, but the screening force should have to be engaged for some amount of time first, depending on positioning. In essence, the randomized placement of ships is starting the TPs far too close to the front lines, rather than well behind everything else. While the distance to the TPs should have some random element, in most or all cases, there is NO WAY that the enemy fleets could appear at the beaches or docks to attack the transports without engaging the screening force first.

 

[marxianTJ]

Another issue, is that if your only combat action group in the area is CV based, your screens are drawn like magnets to ships with "priority" and CVs happen to have the highest priority. CVs also don't close in combat, they move *away* in combat. So the opposite of what the Yorktown did at Midway lol. So what's happening, is if you have a CV fleet with all your screens, and your TPs sitting in the same sea tile, the CVs or whomever spots the enemy fleet, the CVs move *away* from them and drag all your screens with them, leaving the TPs sitting there not moving and getting crushed in the ensuing fight.

Now interestingly enough, if you put the CVs in their *own* fleet just by themselves, but have a SAG in the same tile, you'll get the stacking penalty for having ships fight in the same tile but only the CV's screens will get magnetized so-to-speak by the CVs - your other fleet - so long as it has no CVs - will do exactly the opposite. They will seek to *close* with the enemy as quickly as possible and begin firing - your capital ships in this fleet will also magnetize their own escorts and bring them along, as well as drawing enemy fire like a magnet (because priority also figures the likelihood to be fired on with the right tech research).

That's why having gun based escorts or even a single SAG is fairly important if you mean to make a lot of naval invasions, because CV centered fleets are wholly incapable of protecting transports. Not to mention that SAGs give your invading for a shore bombardment bonus which is handy It's the only thing that CV fleets can't do better than a SAG lol.

The optimal CV fleet in this game will have only CVs and a BARE MINIMUM of screens - just in case they get caught in bad weather or surprise attacked, or you end up fighting a highly advanced BC based fleet that can actually catch up to your CVs. The reason being that since CVs move *away* from combat, your screens will only be in range to actually fire only in dire circumstances - so they're wasted firepower potential under *most* circumstances.