Protected Empire Borders vs Claimed Fringe Space

Protected Empire Borders vs Claimed Fringe Space

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Blue001

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I would like to see Empire Borders be separated into two parts. Protected Systems and Fringe Systems. Basically, just because you own a system wouldn't mean closing your borders would affect your ability to keep people out if it is on the Fringe of your owned space.

Currently, to own a system you build an outpost, and the outpost claims that system outright. It be becomes a 'light' station that can house 3 defense platforms even without upgrading. If you want to have more modules in that system you then Upgrade it to a Station, and of course that gives you more of a foothold in that system. But if you don't upgrade to a station, still no one can pass through it if you close your borders no matter where it is, even if it is 20 hyper-lanes from any of your fleets or planets.

What I feel would improve this is to have ONLY Your Planets/Colonies and Upgraded Starbases generate 'Borders'. Outposts would no longer do this on their own, but they would allow border growth into those systems alter depending on your Empire strength.

Think of it as a combination of the current border system and the old system of border spread that Stellaris used to have years ago.

Boons from this System include.
  • Increasing your Starbase capacity would have more impact as would deciding where to put them
  • Lessen then chance players will be completely trapped by their neighbors just because they don't want to go to war (or negotiate) to pass through a single system with an un-allied outpost in it.
  • The Galaxy would feel more open to travel, even in the mid-late game.
  • Would simulate unfriendly and friendly alien empires being able to enter your space without your knowledge to pass through, because closing your borders to them really wouldn't stop them, would it?
  • Defenses would have to be focused in specific systems rather than spamming 3 defense stations on every outpost to slow the progress of an enemy fleet in EVERY system as they stop to fight every 3 seconds.
  • Claimed systems could be captured without an actual fight, lowering War Exhaustion gain from losing system after system after system in the fringe of your space before your fleets can get there to defend them.
  • Fleets of a certain size or more could activate "Blockade" functions to generate a border in a Fringe System as long as they remain there.

So, How would this work???

Firstly, Outposts would be renamed "Beacons" and would be glorified satellites laying your claim. (Think of them in a lore sense announcing to any ship entering the system "This space is claimed by the XXXXX Empire."

You could then upgrade Beacons to Outposts with the 3 defense stations available (this would count against station allowance at this level too.)

Owning Systems Vs Protecting Them
You would still OWN the systems with Beacons alone, and be the one who can build resource stations there so no change would happen in regards to scanning dig sites, or getting resources from those systems. But you wouldn't be able to build defense buildings, nor close borders in that system until you upgrade it to a legit Station.

Enemy fleets would treat your beacons as neutral and unattackable as they pass on through, unless they are at war with you of course. Harmless Fauna would likely leave beacons alone in most cases as the fact it doesn't have weapons means they would likely ignore it unless they themselves really want that system to be pure. And this would help with the new Fauna update coming to the game where they can regen new fleets and move around the galaxy in mid-late game again as it would restrict their movement less.

This would make the galaxy feel more open, and free to movement and would also make strategy more important when it comes to expanding your borders as you would have to expand smartly, rather than grab every and all systems as fast as possible which is the current stratagem.

NOTE : It would look as if this would complicate things for Tall Players... as getting more colonies would be impossible, but like I said, it only is in regards to closing borders. Tall players could still build stations to expand Protected Borders, and would get all resources just form having beacons.

Expanding your Space

You would start with your planet. It would generate say... 2 "Protected Space" Range. So any system within 2 hyper-lanes that you have claimed with a Beacon would become surrounded by your Border proper and be considered Protected.
As you claim more systems, you build more Beacons to build mining/research stations to collect resources, but your protected border will not expand to include those systems automatically. (This Fringe Space, that isn't protected could visually be represented with a much thinner border line and faded color of your empire.)

Building a Station would generate less Protected Space Border than Colonies and Planets, but through upgrades could be increased to include neighboring systems too. I would feel that over the course of the game, Protected Border distance generated by planets and stations could eventually upgrade to be +5 from planets and +3 from stations.

This system would not change much in the early game, as a single planet and a say 3 stations, could potentially encompass a fair area of space. This is more to change mid-late game and alter and remove extreme border spread that occurs.

Other ideas that would be possible Inside this new border system.
  • Players could negotiate to share ownership of Fringe Systems, and split all resources coming from it. But not Protected Border systems.
  • Setting War Claims within Fringe systems could cost less than Claiming Protected ones allowing 'border wars' specifically, but only if they don't claim Protected systems in the same War. These Wars would have less of an impact on relations, and likely be shorter and less bloody.
  • Beacons could be upgraded through tech to improve sensor vision (as they would have none at first) and eventually create a sensor net throughout your space.
 

Blue001

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I would still like to see this added... so I'm giving it a good ol bump.
 

klopkr

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It might be crazy but I think if you could only control the space of inhabited star systems and the rest were wild west anyone can move through and explore on their own that would be great and be a solution to the 'what is the ocean of stellaris' problem. It would massively change how defense platforms work though.
 

mammonmachine

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I like this idea. I'm not so sure about colonies creating protected bordered space, at least by default. I like the idea of small frontier colonies that are outside of the protection of the main empire, who could be vulnerable to interference and might be more inclined to rebellion. One approach would be to have this vary according to the development of the colony.

In fact, you could vary it for starbases as well. Perhaps you could make the range of border protection something like this:

Starbases:
  • Bastion: 0
  • Outpost: 1 (i.e. the system it is in)
  • Starport: 2
  • Starhold: 2
  • Star Fortress: 2
  • Citadel: 3
Colonies:
  • Reassembled ship shelter: 0
  • Planetary Administration: 1
  • Planetary Capital: 2
  • System Capital Complex: 3
I also like the idea that multiple empires can have bastions in the same system, which disallows empires from upgrading to outposts and setting up more than basic colonies. You could then have diplomatic options for request the ceding of fringe territory, or a casus belli to take it by force (preventing e.g the setup of bastions in the territory of the victor for 10 years)
 

Rodmar18

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There could be another way to expand in fringe systems:
  1. Keep starbases, outposts, etc, as they are, to control star systems;
  2. Allow to claim any non controlled system by spending influence, not unlike when you lay claims on enemy systems; this would define "fringe systems".
Some specific rules applying to fringe systems:
  • Claiming a non controlled system would allow to build orbital stations on a first came-first served basis. Only one empire could exploit a resource deposit at a time. Stations in fringe systems could be transfered by diplomacy.
  • Claims from different empires would compete to settle who can legitimately build a starbase and control the system in the end. The more influence you spend, the highest the claim on the system.
  • A claim is not necessary to build a starbase and thus to control a system, but any claiming empire would then be upset (temporary, cumulative, diplomatic negative modifier toward the builder) and even gain a casus belli against the builder empire.
  • As a general rule, any bidder (be it a non bidder) would upset any other bidder; any equal or higher bidder would also gain a casus belli for a number of years depending on the difference in claim (multiple of 5 years?), and an automatic and free claim on this system .
  • A small diplomatic negative modifier would be mutually earned when two empires are claiming the same system, but fringe systems wouldn't count in the Border Friction (or not as much as a border between two adjacent controlled systems. Cooperative empires and expansionnist empires wouldn't weight such penalty the same.
  • Influence cost to control a system (i.e. to build a starbase) would include any former claiming cost according to the following rule:
cost_to_build = nominal_cost_to_build - own_claims_cost + highest_other_claims_cost​
That is, if nobody else claimed this system before you build an outpost, then claiming costs are deduced from building costs. However, building an outpost in a system that another empire has higher claims on would be more costly: say that one empire did spend 25 more influence on this system, then it would cost you 25 influence more to build an outpost here. I believe the system would encourage status quo, in case claims are balanced (not to mention the casus belli).​
 

methegrate

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I would like to see Empire Borders be separated into two parts. Protected Systems and Fringe Systems. Basically, just because you own a system wouldn't mean closing your borders would affect your ability to keep people out if it is on the Fringe of your owned space.

Currently, to own a system you build an outpost, and the outpost claims that system outright. It be becomes a 'light' station that can house 3 defense platforms even without upgrading. If you want to have more modules in that system you then Upgrade it to a Station, and of course that gives you more of a foothold in that system. But if you don't upgrade to a station, still no one can pass through it if you close your borders no matter where it is, even if it is 20 hyper-lanes from any of your fleets or planets.

What I feel would improve this is to have ONLY Your Planets/Colonies and Upgraded Starbases generate 'Borders'. Outposts would no longer do this on their own, but they would allow border growth into those systems alter depending on your Empire strength.

Think of it as a combination of the current border system and the old system of border spread that Stellaris used to have years ago.

Boons from this System include.
  • Increasing your Starbase capacity would have more impact as would deciding where to put them
  • Lessen then chance players will be completely trapped by their neighbors just because they don't want to go to war (or negotiate) to pass through a single system with an un-allied outpost in it.
  • The Galaxy would feel more open to travel, even in the mid-late game.
  • Would simulate unfriendly and friendly alien empires being able to enter your space without your knowledge to pass through, because closing your borders to them really wouldn't stop them, would it?
  • Defenses would have to be focused in specific systems rather than spamming 3 defense stations on every outpost to slow the progress of an enemy fleet in EVERY system as they stop to fight every 3 seconds.
  • Claimed systems could be captured without an actual fight, lowering War Exhaustion gain from losing system after system after system in the fringe of your space before your fleets can get there to defend them.
  • Fleets of a certain size or more could activate "Blockade" functions to generate a border in a Fringe System as long as they remain there.

So, How would this work???

Firstly, Outposts would be renamed "Beacons" and would be glorified satellites laying your claim. (Think of them in a lore sense announcing to any ship entering the system "This space is claimed by the XXXXX Empire."

You could then upgrade Beacons to Outposts with the 3 defense stations available (this would count against station allowance at this level too.)

Owning Systems Vs Protecting Them
You would still OWN the systems with Beacons alone, and be the one who can build resource stations there so no change would happen in regards to scanning dig sites, or getting resources from those systems. But you wouldn't be able to build defense buildings, nor close borders in that system until you upgrade it to a legit Station.

Enemy fleets would treat your beacons as neutral and unattackable as they pass on through, unless they are at war with you of course. Harmless Fauna would likely leave beacons alone in most cases as the fact it doesn't have weapons means they would likely ignore it unless they themselves really want that system to be pure. And this would help with the new Fauna update coming to the game where they can regen new fleets and move around the galaxy in mid-late game again as it would restrict their movement less.

This would make the galaxy feel more open, and free to movement and would also make strategy more important when it comes to expanding your borders as you would have to expand smartly, rather than grab every and all systems as fast as possible which is the current stratagem.

NOTE : It would look as if this would complicate things for Tall Players... as getting more colonies would be impossible, but like I said, it only is in regards to closing borders. Tall players could still build stations to expand Protected Borders, and would get all resources just form having beacons.

Expanding your Space

You would start with your planet. It would generate say... 2 "Protected Space" Range. So any system within 2 hyper-lanes that you have claimed with a Beacon would become surrounded by your Border proper and be considered Protected.
As you claim more systems, you build more Beacons to build mining/research stations to collect resources, but your protected border will not expand to include those systems automatically. (This Fringe Space, that isn't protected could visually be represented with a much thinner border line and faded color of your empire.)

Building a Station would generate less Protected Space Border than Colonies and Planets, but through upgrades could be increased to include neighboring systems too. I would feel that over the course of the game, Protected Border distance generated by planets and stations could eventually upgrade to be +5 from planets and +3 from stations.

This system would not change much in the early game, as a single planet and a say 3 stations, could potentially encompass a fair area of space. This is more to change mid-late game and alter and remove extreme border spread that occurs.

Other ideas that would be possible Inside this new border system.
  • Players could negotiate to share ownership of Fringe Systems, and split all resources coming from it. But not Protected Border systems.
  • Setting War Claims within Fringe systems could cost less than Claiming Protected ones allowing 'border wars' specifically, but only if they don't claim Protected systems in the same War. These Wars would have less of an impact on relations, and likely be shorter and less bloody.
  • Beacons could be upgraded through tech to improve sensor vision (as they would have none at first) and eventually create a sensor net throughout your space.
I quite like this idea. Although I might limit claimed space to just space stations. I think there's a lot to be said for increasing the distinct roles of space infrastructure and planetary infrastructure. Here, I could absolutely see stations as the way you claim the space around that resource-generating planet. Sure you've got a thriving colony down there, but if you want to control the traffic in the system you'll need to build in space.
 
Last edited:

gja102

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I'd like to see this idea reflected in the map visuals, too. Fringe systems that just had beacons could be represented with a hatch pattern, whereas the main holdings would be fully filled with the empire's colour.

Where two empires placed beacons in the same system, it would hatch them in both empire's colours, giving a visual representation of where fringe systems and contested areas were.

If there were large areas of shared systems, it would be fun if the game could dynamically name those regions in a similar manner to sectors and nebulae. Stellaris needs more space geography, so seeing stuff like the 'Human-Scyldari Neutral Zone' emerge on-map would add a tonne of flavour.
 
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Blue001

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Glad to see you guys liked my ideas. I also like your inputs and expansions on the idea! Hadn't been on the forum in a month of so and was surprised to see so many posts on this. :)
 

Ovan

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This is a great suggestion that could improve diplomacy and warfare vastly, PDX already definitely massively improved the way expansion worked when they released apocalypse and I think something akin to this is a natural and good direction to go.

  • Players could negotiate to share ownership of Fringe Systems, and split all resources coming from it. But not Protected Border systems.
  • Setting War Claims within Fringe systems could cost less than Claiming Protected ones allowing 'border wars' specifically, but only if they don't claim Protected systems in the same War. These Wars would have less of an impact on relations, and likely be shorter and less bloody.
  • Beacons could be upgraded through tech to improve sensor vision (as they would have none at first) and eventually create a sensor net throughout your space.
All good added suggestions as well, beacons could even potentially cause First Contact wars and the like.
 

klopkr

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It would be interesting if small fringe colonies with less than 10 pops could be vied for by different government.

Maybe you send in your pops but they don't grow very fast with their habitability. So another empire sends their pops in to effect the ethics and if they have enough of their own pops there to flip the colony to their own or make it rebel.


These colonies are a lot like islands in the galactic ocean in this game. On earth we saw so much varied competition with colonizing our islands. I feel like smaller colonies should feel very precocious while your core civilized worlds should feel like a collection of rowdy powerful places you need to keep in check.
 

Blue001

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It would be interesting if small fringe colonies with less than 10 pops could be vied for by different government.

Maybe you send in your pops but they don't grow very fast with their habitability. So another empire sends their pops in to effect the ethics and if they have enough of their own pops there to flip the colony to their own or make it rebel.


These colonies are a lot like islands in the galactic ocean in this game. On earth we saw so much varied competition with colonizing our islands. I feel like smaller colonies should feel very precocious while your core civilized worlds should feel like a collection of rowdy powerful places you need to keep in check.
Star Trek saw something similar when the Maquis were upset that the Federation basically gave away the space their planets were in because the Cardassians wanted it in the terms of a treaty. So humans and other Federation citizens were suddenly Cardassian citizens.
So I could see this being an interesting situation in game.
 

Janx14

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doesn't this make the problem of empires leapfrogging over systems to claim past borders more of an issue though, or did i miss something?
 

Rodmar18

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As long as fringe systems don't reset claiming distances, I don't think so. Be prepared to share these systems however.

An isolationnist fallen empire could be more tolerant about bordier fringe systems, ask to dismantle station in such systems (lesser "quest"), and ask to change a controlled system into a fringe system one jump away from a bordier system (a medium quest), alltogether.