Proposed title change : Count to Lord as the default province title.

[spitss]

As you all know the current default title system is as such.

Baron / Count / Duke / King / Emperor

However I propose that the following should be default.

Baron /Lord / Duke / King / Emperor

With this change in mind I would also propose to change the Imperial's duchy title from Duke to Count.

Imperial titles
Baron / Lord / Count / King / Emperor

Breton/Default titles
Baron / Lord / Duke / King /Emperor

The reasons for this change is to better reflect lore.
In Oblivion there are seven Counts, each controlling a large city and the surrounding lands. The small number of Counts in itself shows us how important a rank it is.
Furthermore, there are no Dukes in Oblivion, lore wise. However the title does seem to exist for the Bretons and Dunmer.
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http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Count
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Duke_Vedam_Dren
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My reasons for adopting the title of Lord in place of Count rests on two reasons.
The first reasons is lore. In Oblivion the title of Lord is used frequently, but let's have a look as some of the "lords" in Oblivion and their holdings.

Lord Kelvyn
He is the lord of Battlehorn Castle and the surrounding lands

Lord Lovidicus
We find him in the ruins of Crownhaven, presumable this was his seat of power

Lord Drad
Lives in a large manor owns the surrounding lands and has his own mine.

By highlighting these Lords my intention is to show how similar their holdings are to that of a Count in vanilla Crusader Kings, in addition to showing the title is used frequently for autocrats under the rank of Count.

My second reasons for using Lord in place of Count as a default title is to free up the title of Count so that it may be used for "duchy" level holdings.
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http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Lord_Kelvyn
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Lord_Lovidicus
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Lord_Drad
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TLDR - Count should be Lord for everyone - Duke should be Count for Imperials.

 

[Raczynski]

Makes a lot of sense. The only objection would be potential confusion, but personally I'm all for this

 

[LordManslaughte]

+1

 

[DeltaCortis]

I couldn't agree more with this

 

[Sarosh]

+1

 

[micmac1313]

I like it +1

 

[Arakhor]

You already know my view, as does anyone who reads the bug tracker reports.

 

[Lari]

+1

 

[unmerged(547912)]

As you all know the current default title system is as such.

Baron / Count / Duke / King / Emperor

However I propose that the following should be default.

Baron /Lord / Duke / King / Emperor

With this change in mind I would also propose to change the Imperial's duchy title from Duke to Count.

Imperial titles
Baron / Lord / Count / King / Emperor

Breton/Default titles
Baron / Lord / Duke / King /Emperor

The reasons for this change is to better reflect lore.
In Oblivion there are seven Counts, each controlling a large city and the surrounding lands. The small number of Counts in itself shows us how important a rank it is.
Furthermore, there are no Dukes in Oblivion, lore wise. However the title does seem to exist for the Bretons and Dunmer.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Count
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Duke_Vedam_Dren
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My reasons for adopting the title of Lord in place of Count rests on two reasons.
The first reasons is lore. In Oblivion the title of Lord is used frequently, but let's have a look as some of the "lords" in Oblivion and their holdings.

Lord Kelvyn
He is the lord of Battlehorn Castle and the surrounding lands

Lord Lovidicus
We find him in the ruins of Crownhaven, presumable this was his seat of power

Lord Drad
Lives in a large manor owns the surrounding lands and has his own mine.

By highlighting these Lords my intention is to show how similar their holdings are to that of a Count in vanilla Crusader Kings, in addition to showing the title is used frequently for autocrats under the rank of Count.

My second reasons for using Lord in place of Count as a default title is to free up the title of Count so that it may be used for "duchy" level holdings.
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http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Lord_Kelvyn
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Lord_Lovidicus
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Lord_Drad
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TLDR - Count should be Lord for everyone - Duke should be Count for Imperials.

Lord is a generic title and normally is used below Count at the same level as Baron or as a title with no true meaning that is subsequent of an actual title. For example, the King of Sicily was also the Lord of Albany. The King of England was also the Lord of Ireland.

"The appellation "Lord" is used most often by barons, who are rarely addressed by their formal and legal title of "Baron", a notable exception being during a baron's introduction into the House of Lords when he begins his oath by saying "I, Baron X...of Y...". The correct style is 'Lord (X)', for example, Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron Tennyson, is commonly known as "Lord Tennyson". Marquesses, earls and viscounts are commonly also addressed as Lord. Dukes use the style "Duke of (X)", and are not correctly referred to as 'Lord (X)'. Dukes are formally addressed as 'Your Grace', rather than 'My Lord'. In the Peerage of Scotland, the members of the lowest level of the peerage have the substantive title 'Lord of Parliament' rather than Baron." - Wikipedia

If you are to have "Lords" as an actual title, then you need to replace Baron with something else like "Knight" or "Seigneur," which is a way of saying "Knight of the Manor." Or Vidame or Baronet. All those are also acceptable. And you can actually establish certain Lordships to be Baronies and Counties as they are in this image of High Rock.

http://images.g4tv.com/ImageDb3/166...re-Miles----Hows-That-Compare-To-Oblivion.jpg


For Nords, I have this scheme that could be used to feel more authentically Scandinavian.

SCANDINAVIAN

High King (Skyrim) - King (Whiterun) - Jarl (Whiterun) - Thane (Whiterun) - Ridder (Local Castle in Whiterun)

(Ridder means Knight in various Germanic countries includes Sweden and Norway and can easily be explained as a follower to the Dragonborn, who is a Thane)

(So for instance, Jzargo would be consider a Ridder of the Dragonborn)

BRETON

High King (High Rock) - King (Daggerfall) - Duke or Prince - Count or Baron - Viscount (Under a Count) or Baronet (if under Baron)

(Viscount means someone below Count and Baronet means someone below Baron)

(Certain Kingdoms are called Baronies and others are called Counties)

(Baronies could be smaller territories with less Holdings as compared to Counties which would hold more)

As an Alternative

High King (High Rock) - Overking (Daggerfall) - King - Lord - Vidame

This could also be acceptable to Orcs

ORC

High King (High Rock) - Overking (Orsinium) - King - High Chief - Chief


IMPERIAL

Emperor (Cyrodiil) - King - Count - Lord - Vidame

(Vidame means Vice-Lord, can easily mean someone under a Lord)


I also propose making the Redguards "two races."

I know a lot of people want to think of the Crowns and Forebears as the same race. The problem is that it is stated the Crowns maintain their indigenous appearance, while the Forebears are known for intermarrying with Bretons, Imperials and Nords. So the Forebears should appear more hybrid like than the Crowns.

So the Crowns might look like this: http://25.media.tumblr.com/b0dee1d04ad97a43a2523c528736a76a/tumblr_mmpd99td9h1s33iieo1_1280.jpg

The Forebears might look like this: http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k118/ekdiaz8/Redguard.jpg

Crown: http://www.carlsguides.com/walkthroughs/skyrim/pictures/races/redguard.jpg

Forebear: http://www.gnd-tech.com/image/i/WPCvS.jpg

Crown: http://i59.tinypic.com/kchug2.jpg

Forebear: http://api.ning.com/files/AgRqXkIt-...WUyKfOCtdhMjQB5JGzG9wAnAP2/RedguardFemale.jpg

Crown: http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8075/8338053023_61fe19dc7b_h.jpg

Forebear: http://th05.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2012/316/f/3/kiara_the_redguard_by_zchanning-d5kt00e.jpg

Crowns should retain the African depiction.
Forebears should look like Arabs (because they are a little bit more mix looking), maybe just a little bit darker and they should retain the same eye scheme given to Nords. Since there are Blue-Eyed Forebears.
The new Indian GFX could be used for the Islander people.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Redguard

 

[spitss]

If you are to have "Lords" as an actual title, then you need to replace Baron with something else like "Knight" or "Seigneur," which is a way of saying "Knight of the Manor." Or Vidame or Baronet. All those are also acceptable. And you can actually establish certain Lordships to be Baronies and Counties as they are in this image of High Rock.

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At the moment for the Imperials, I think it's going to be...
King - Count - Baron - Lord

However there is no evidence for the title of Baron being used in Cyrodill, so personally this isn't ideal.

I would prefer it as...
King - Count - Lord - Knight (With "Sir" Being used as a prefix.) / Vice-lord would work as well.


=======================================================


SCANDINAVIAN

High King (Skyrim) - King (Whiterun) - Jarl (Whiterun) - Thane (Whiterun) - Ridder (Local Castle in Whiterun)

(Ridder means Knight in various Germanic countries includes Sweden and Norway and can easily be explained as a follower to the Dragonborn, who is a Thane)

(So for instance, Jzargo would be consider a Ridder of the Dragonborn)

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This is okay I guess, however I would think "Master" or "Warden" would be a more approipate title for a Nordic "Baron".


For Bretons I would say...

High King - King - Baron - Lord - "Sir/Vice-lord"

 

[darthfanta]

I was under the impression that Lord Drad and Lord Kelvyn were minor nobles(e.g barons) at best.

 

[spitss]

I was under the impression that Lord Drad and Lord Kelvyn were minor nobles(e.g barons) at best.

How's that? All castle holdings are the same size, the only prerequisite for being a Count instead of a Baron is that you have vassals under you or you are have the only holding in the county.

 

[unmerged(547912)]

If you are to have "Lords" as an actual title, then you need to replace Baron with something else like "Knight" or "Seigneur," which is a way of saying "Knight of the Manor." Or Vidame or Baronet. All those are also acceptable. And you can actually establish certain Lordships to be Baronies and Counties as they are in this image of High Rock.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
At the moment for the Imperials, I think it's going to be...
King - Count - Baron - Lord

However there is no evidence for the title of Baron being used in Cyrodill, so personally this isn't ideal.

I would prefer it as...
King - Count - Lord - Knight (With "Sir" Being used as a prefix.) / Vice-lord would work as well.


=======================================================


SCANDINAVIAN

High King (Skyrim) - King (Whiterun) - Jarl (Whiterun) - Thane (Whiterun) - Ridder (Local Castle in Whiterun)

(Ridder means Knight in various Germanic countries includes Sweden and Norway and can easily be explained as a follower to the Dragonborn, who is a Thane)

(So for instance, Jzargo would be consider a Ridder of the Dragonborn)

-=-=-=-=--=
This is okay I guess, however I would think "Master" or "Warden" would be a more approipate title for a Nordic "Baron".


For Bretons I would say...

High King - King - Baron - Lord - "Sir/Vice-lord"

"This is okay I guess, however I would think "Master" or "Warden" would be a more approipate title for a Nordic "Baron"."

But Master or Warden is not used in Skyrim as a title and is not used in Scandinavia. In fact, you won't see anything but Housecarl being a position of someone under a Thane. So you really have nothing to go with and since the Nords are based entirely off Vikings, you can use Scandinavian styles to filler in what would be Nordic.

So I would rather stay Germanic and use Ridder. The Master or Warden appears more to be what you would see being used by Dunmer to be quite honest.

And even though Sir is a prefix, it is not a title.

Plus you also have Counts and Dukes as actual titles in High Rock, not just Barons.

Camlorn is a duchy. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Camlorn

There is also said to be counties, not just baronies.

High Rock is suppose to be interesting, you even have Bretons (if you have played Skyrim) telling you how confusing the politics were.

So... lets play with that knowing there are city-states (which should be county-tier duchies similar to Venice), Baronies, Counties, Duchies, and Kingdoms alongside Lordships and Manors (which are knight held fiefs).

Emperor (Big) / High King (Small) - King (big) / Duke (small) - Count (big) / Baron (Small) - Viscount (Big and under Count) / Baronet (Big and under Baron) / Lord (Small) - Seigneur (under Viscount or Baronet) / Vice-Lord (under Lord).

What determines big or small?

Big is more than three territories or more than three holdings (aside from the main holding) in a territory. Small is two to three territories or two to three holdings (aside from the main holding) in a territory.

Like for instance Daggerfall would easily have as much as six holdings aside from the main holding, which would make it BIG and the territory possessing the holdings to be considered a Viscountcy or a Baronetcy rather than a Lordship. Also since, the territory of Daggerfall is a considerably larger section of High Rock that has more than three territories, it would make the territory of Daggerfall to coincide clearly as a Viscounty within a larger Country rather than as a Baronetcy within a Barony under of course the Kingdom of Daggerfall itself, which itself is due to Kingdom having more than three sections of territories rather than three or less territories.

Given the actual data used thus far:

k_daggerfall consists of the d_daggerfall, d_glenpoint, d_anticlere, and d_daenia. Since it is four total sections, it makes k_daggerfall be a kingdom rather than a duchy. And since d_daggerfall consists of c_daggerfall, c_tulune, c_betony, and c_shalgora; it makes d_daggerfall a county. And since d_daggerfall is a county and c_daggerfall is a territory with six holdings aside from the main holding it self, it would be a viscounty and the holdings themselves, should they be castles, would be a Seigneur's Manor. Of course a Seigneur, which is a knight, would hold the prefix of sir, but the actual title would be Seigneur. Say there was a Breton named Drakor. Drakor would be addressed as either Sir Drakor of Maestag or as Drakor, Seigneur of the Manor of Maestag.

c_graymont has three b_territories or holdings aside from the main one, which is necessary to play it (which is thus dismissed from a requirement in this scheme), thereby it would be just a lordship rather than a baronetcy or viscountcy. It is a bit confusing, but that makes it more lore immerse as Bretons like to put it.

d_glenpoint has two c_territories and thereby would be a Barony rather than a County.

k_camlorn has two d_territories and thereby would be a Duchy rather than a Kingdom.

See the scheme now?