Proposal(s) for Victoria 3

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A couple of the recent posts from @Luckierexpert and @General WVPM got me thinking more about how colonial regions, perhaps most relevantly India, should be represented. It fits in with the Victoria theme, which concerns itself with the nature of government and state power, and how those changed throughout the long nineteenth century.

I think this is a great place to add a layer of complexity beyond simple province ownership to the game, which is something Paradox has never really tackled. The British rule of India, as of the game start, was a sort of ad hoc administrative apparatus that sprung up to support HEIC business interests, not overseas territories of the crown ruled directly from Parliament in London. This reality shouldn't be portrayed as a hard divide between the princely states which are 100% Indian and the HEIC territory which is 100% British, since even in much of the land under British control, there were many princes given limited autonomy to do the work of lower level administration.

Thus I would propose a province value called local influence, which would be divided into proportions according to the various actors in a region and represents the de facto political power currently being wielded (in the case of competing governments) or with the potential to be mustered (in the case of a movement) should a rebellion erupt in a region. The strongest government faction would have the privilege of showing its color on the map, but conditions on the ground would nonetheless be influenced by other factions as well. In practice, this means that the HEIC and the UK proper would be competing amongst each other for dominance across India based on political and economic maneuvering in London, but local princely bureaucracies and eventually nationalist forces would also drive influence from the ground up. If a local faction's influence gets high enough, it can snowball into something like the Indian Rebellion of 1857, a late-game independence movement, or, if too little is done to correct it, a bloodless disintegration of the colonial administration as local rulers exert more and more de facto power and stop swearing fealty to colonial bureaucrats.

Mechanically, I would see different types of factions driving specific migration patterns into colonial provinces—that is, the HEIC would concern itself primarily with stationing upper administrators in India, while a post-HEIC government administration may choose to retain that model or encourage many more settlers to move to the subcontinent and increase ties to the homeland.

Each pop, based on their wealth and consciousness (or its take-your-pick replacement mechanic), would generate influence that pulls the province toward their preferred faction over time. Enacting relevant laws and managing autonomy would modify faction influence—you can try to crush nationalist sentiment at the cost of severe unhappiness and reduced economic output, or grant concessions, which pacifies the locals somewhat, but also increases the separatists' and nationalists' consciousness as their dreams begin to look more attainable.

The same system could be used to model conditions for minority populations in empires elsewhere as well. Poles, Hungarians, and Slavs within Austria, for example, could be swayed by nationalist ideas that spread gradually across the map. An influential Yugoslavian nationalist movement—starting perhaps as just an illicit newspaper in Zagreb—would propagate to surrounding Slavic areas through exposure, and possibly eventually convince non-Slavs to support a similar endeavor, all without forcing these developments into all-or-nothing randomly timed events.

It also works for the American abolition and secession movements, which I think plays well off @EU3NOOB's ideas about subnational economic issues within the US. Border states like Missouri, Kentucky, and the eventual West Virginia can be torn between pro-slavery and pro-union sentiments, which compete for influence until war finally breaks out.

And it can allow for poorly-defined border regions to switch hands without requiring a full-scale war by supporting border skirmishes that serve to tip the local influence one way or another until a province defects to a new owner. A neighbor could even choose to support settlement efforts across the border to play the long game of sowing separatist sentiment in a rival. This also differentiates hotly contested provinces where influence remains nearly 50/50 from fully controlled provinces that would require a formal declaration of war to conquer.
 
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Luckierexpert

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A couple of the recent posts from @Luckierexpert and @General WVPM got me thinking more about how colonial regions, perhaps most relevantly India, should be represented. It fits in with the Victoria theme, which concerns itself with the nature of government and state power, and how those changed throughout the long nineteenth century.

I think this is a great place to add a layer of complexity beyond simple province ownership to the game, which is something Paradox has never really tackled. The British rule of India, as of the game start, was a sort of ad hoc administrative apparatus that sprung up to support HEIC business interests, not overseas territories of the crown ruled directly from Parliament in London. This reality shouldn't be portrayed as a hard divide between the princely states which are 100% Indian and the HEIC territory which is 100% British, since even in much of the land under British control, there were many princes given limited autonomy to do the work of lower level administration.

Thus I would propose a province value called local influence, which would be divided into proportions according to the various actors in a region and represents the de facto political power currently being wielded (in the case of competing governments) or with the potential to be mustered (in the case of a movement) should a rebellion erupt in a region. The strongest government faction would have the privilege of showing its color on the map, but conditions on the ground would nonetheless be influenced by other factions as well. In practice, this means that the HEIC and the UK proper would be competing amongst each other for dominance across India based on political and economic maneuvering in London, but local princely bureaucracies and eventually nationalist forces would also drive influence from the ground up. If a local faction's influence gets high enough, it can snowball into something like the Indian Rebellion of 1857, a late-game independence movement, or, if too little is done to correct it, a bloodless disintegration of the colonial administration as local rulers exert more and more de facto power and stop swearing fealty to colonial bureaucrats.

Mechanically, I would see different types of factions driving specific migration patterns into colonial provinces—that is, the HEIC would concern itself primarily with stationing upper administrators in India, while a post-HEIC government administration may choose to retain that model or encourage many more settlers to move to the subcontinent and increase ties to the homeland.

Each pop, based on their wealth and consciousness (or its take-your-pick replacement mechanic), would generate influence that pulls the province toward their preferred faction over time. Enacting relevant laws and managing autonomy would modify faction influence—you can try to crush nationalist sentiment at the cost of severe unhappiness and reduced economic output, or grant concessions, which pacifies the locals somewhat, but also increases the separatists' and nationalists' consciousness as their dreams begin to look more attainable.

The same system could be used to model conditions for minority populations in empires elsewhere as well. Poles, Hungarians, and Slavs within Austria, for example, could be swayed by nationalist ideas that spread gradually across the map. An influential Yugoslavian nationalist movement—starting perhaps as just an illicit newspaper in Zagreb—would propagate to surrounding Slavic areas through exposure, and possibly eventually convince non-Slavs to support a similar endeavor, all without forcing these developments into all-or-nothing randomly timed events.

It also works for the American abolition and secession movements, which I think plays well off @EU3NOOB's ideas about subnational economic issues within the US. Border states like Missouri, Kentucky, and the eventual West Virginia can be torn between pro-slavery and pro-union sentiments, which compete for influence until war finally breaks out.

And it can allow for poorly-defined border regions to switch hands without requiring a full-scale war by supporting border skirmishes that serve to tip the local influence one way or another until a province defects to a new owner. A neighbor could even choose to support settlement efforts across the border to play the long game of sowing separatist sentiment in a rival. This also differentiates hotly contested provinces where influence remains nearly 50/50 from fully controlled provinces that would require a formal declaration of war to conquer.
These are really good ideas. Most of mine were more based on colonialism in Africa, where the situation was different compared with India and south-east asian nations that were colonised. I feel that a push and pull mechanic with the east India companies (including the Dutch one as well) and their respective governments could be interesting and perhaps could give an interesting alt-history government type if they break free (as some speculated the HEIC wanted to do at some points) focused around a corporate model.

I'd also back a system that encouraged the dominions/semi-independent colonies to be formed in the mid to late game, such as Canada, South Africa or the Raj, as Vic II vanilla this only really happens when a nation needs to shed infamy by releasing nations.
 
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za3tarani

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I have recently started playing vicky2 again, after mostly playing eu4 last couple of years. the game is still alot of fun, but realised some possible improvements to an eventual vicky3 (i dont know if this has been suggested in the 173 pages though).

1. planned economy/state capitalism:
* i get that planned economies are centrally planned, but that doesnt really mean one person took all the decisions everywhere, so there should be some level of delegation (maybe to state hired economic planners).
* correct me if i'm wrong, but the only income to the state is through taxes and tariffs. so what happens to the profit produced by a factory? under capitalism, it goes to the capitalist, but if the state builds and owns a factory it should get the profit as well (not just paying subsidies and losing money when factory produces deficit).

2. world economy: i have seen many complains that it doesnt make much sense that a small country in a remote area doesnt trade to its neighbor because a country in the other side of the glode has a higher ranking. i have seen many different suggestions on how to solve it, with advanced and complex system. i have a simple solution, why not have transportation cost (like some base cost per area), and countries automatically trade (buy/sell) with cheapest alternative, this way it also makes it profitable to colonize. is there even a transport cost in the game?
 
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DesNibelungen

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2. world economy: i have seen many complains that it doesnt make much sense that a small country in a remote area doesnt trade to its neighbor because a country in the other side of the glode has a higher ranking. i have seen many different suggestions on how to solve it, with advanced and complex system. i have a simple solution, why not have transportation cost (like some base cost per area), and countries automatically trade (buy/sell) with cheapest alternative, this way it also makes it profitable to colonize. is there even a transport cost in the game?

I think the idea is that, in this era, the great powers did in fact control global trade and the ability of small nations to trade with anyone was restricted by the GPs and their sphere of influence. Japan, for example, didn't want to trade with anyone (for the most part) until American warships sailed up and forced them to open for trade.
 
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Kovax

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is there even a transport cost in the game?
Sadly, there is not. As stated, the game models the "spheres of influence" of the Great Powers and their trade monopolies fairly well, but does not properly represent what happened outside of those spheres between other nations. Trade within the individual Spheres makes sense, the global market is just wrong.
 
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za3tarani

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I think the idea is that, in this era, the great powers did in fact control global trade and the ability of small nations to trade with anyone was restricted by the GPs and their sphere of influence. Japan, for example, didn't want to trade with anyone (for the most part) until American warships sailed up and forced them to open for trade.
you can have sphere of influence prioritized. but the excess can still be exported, that's where the priority goes to cheapest (when transp cost is included for instance), instead of just a big world market where everyone buys and sells.
 

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tech system overhaul.
Rename "technology" to "theory".
A theory has to first developed by a pop before it become "researchable".
To develop a theory, the pop must meet some conditions first, such as year, wealth, presence of certain inventions etc. If more than one pop meet all the requirements, a random one is chosen, the probability is based on pop size. The country host that pop will get some prestige.
After a theory is developed, all civilized country can now "research" it, which represent the incorporation into education system and spread of that theory. A unciv have to develop the theory itself unless its overlord decided to share.
The "research" or spread happens in two phases. First to your literate population, which is relatively fast; then to all population, which is slow. You can stop research at any time after first phase.
Inventions are invented by pops. The chance is based on the literate pop size(literacy x pop size) and other factors, any research progress beyond first phase will increase the chance by counting some illiterate pop as literate.
Some inventions will promote the inventor to capitalists and a new factory will begain to construct in the state and you can invest it if you are not Laissez faire. Factories are all named. Some inventions can only be invented by clerks work in existing factories. The inventor may choose to found his own business or sell it, the chance are based on number of existing factories, economic policy, and patent law.
New inventions only apply to the place or factories it appeared, but will eventually spread to other places.
Strict patent law will slow or stop invention spread for a certain amount of time but will increase the chance of new inventions.
Foreign investments establish new factories in foreign territory. These factories operate according to local laws (working hour, safety, environment etc), with all investor's inventions, pay local workers, and send all profits back. The investor get more profit, the invested get pop promotion thus more tax. Clerks work in a foreign investment factory is less likely to promote to capitalists, but if they do, they may move and establish their own business with all the inventions they learned.
Capitalists do foreign investment automatically, but government may have some control depending on law set.
Trade overhaul:
All price are local (state)
Local trade company has a budget like a factory does, and all trades are done through trade companies. Every day, a trade company will first try to buy everything locally produced, and then sell everything local pops can buy to them. After that, it will calculate if current stock pile > (yesterdays_sell x 7). If not, it will try to buy from where the price+transport+tariff is lowest. Transport fee is calculated by livestock, car, ship and whatever energy used during transport, which is determined by distance, infrastructure and inventions. The trade is done state by state, the buy order is determined by prestige of the country, and GDP of the state. After buying it will re calculate if current stock pile > (yesterdays_sell x 7), if yes, local price decreas; if not, local price increase. If current_stock_pile/yesterdays_sell > X, it will decrease buy amount of that good the day after, higher the ratio, higher the decreasement. And the local producer will start to fire workers.
 
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Anyone played Railway Empire?

I'd rather like to be more involved in the setting up of train infrastructure. Not in such a close-up meticulous way as in the aformentionned game, of course. However, rail construction is one of the main aspects of the time period, driving industrialisation, urbanisation, transforming national logistics, even strongly influencing military campaigns. It was also one of the areas of heavy-handed government intervention, think transcontinental land grants, etc; which makes it somewhat realistic for the player at Vic2's level to get involved.

That way you get more influence over which cities or areas you'd like to see urbanise and grow, lower prices for needed goods for the pops in those areas.

TLDR: railway empire-lite train infrastructure in Vic3 please. Also be able to set tariffs/subsidies on individual goods.
 
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Gurkhal

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Anyone played Railway Empire?

I'd rather like to be more involved in the setting up of train infrastructure. Not in such a close-up meticulous way as in the aformentionned game, of course. However, rail construction is one of the main aspects of the time period, driving industrialisation, urbanisation, transforming national logistics, even strongly influencing military campaigns. It was also one of the areas of heavy-handed government intervention, think transcontinental land grants, etc; which makes it somewhat realistic for the player at Vic2's level to get involved.

That way you get more influence over which cities or areas you'd like to see urbanise and grow, lower prices for needed goods for the pops in those areas.

TLDR: railway empire-lite train infrastructure in Vic3 please. Also be able to set tariffs/subsidies on individual goods.

Although to be honest in my opinion it could be fun if extra-legal means were also used in regards to railroad construction. :) When railroad were built in my country lots of local magnates spent huge sums of money to get the railroad laid where it could benefit. them. One example of this is for example that the railroad past my home village where I grew up was put there because a few landowners got together and bribed the officials, as I recall when reading about it, to get the line in a sub-optiomal stretch but a stretch that allowed these landowners to get easy access to said railroad.

***

Also I don't know if this is a thing in Victoria II, but when building railroads it should provide employment for poor POPs as to my knowledge it was a rather manpower heavy business. There's a even a specific occupation for those working to building railroads in my native language as they were called "rallare" who were migratory railroad workers who moved between railroad construction projects to make a living.
 

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Railroad construction is too rapid and too cheap in V2. The capitalists will build them for you with no government intervention. Historically, the US Transcontinental Railroad was a major undertaking, heavily subsidized, with rail access throughout the East gradually expanding throughout the 19th and early 20th Centuries, and most of the West taking further decades to fill in between the more prominent cities. In V2, it all happens in a couple of decades, even without government assistance.
 
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Kypton

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Add transportation cost and railroad maintenance cost. Adjust these values so that railroads only make profits in highly populated and industrialized places. And in return, railroads attract immigrants, speed up movement, so the player have a incentive to build railroads before they are profitable.
 
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It's too dense too. Capitalists should form companies and those companies build a particular route. As a government you could create a state company and build a route if you chose to. That should make you a little unpopular with your capitalists.
 

Gemellus

Second Lieutenant
43 Badges
Jul 8, 2013
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My main wish would be a 1821 start date, as you have a lot of possible historical branches that can lead to many different outcomes.

Reasons:
1) Mexico is newly independent and starts out as a constitutional monarchy. Opportunity to continue being a monarchy or go the historical route and become a republic.
2) Latin American wars are raging, leading to a lot of what ifs. Does Spain turn the tide and salvage some of its colonies, the historical outcome, or maybe the revolutionary wars spiral so out of control that Spain loses everything in the western hemisphere.
3) Bourbons are in power in France. Do they stay a constitutional monarchy? Or do they make a failed attempt at sliding back into absolutism?
4) Spain is under the control of the Liberal military coup, which would soon become toppled by a French invasion. Can Ferdinand VII get a son or will the Carlist Wars ravage the nation for the next century?
5) The Greek War of Independence begins
6) Napoleon I has died this year, but Napoleon II is still alive

I'd also love to see ideological leagues like the Quintuple Alliance or the Holy League having an impact on world politics.

Finally, I'd like to see more unit model changes showing the evolution of military equipment. It would be unreasonable to have each uniform change to be represented, so I narrowed it down to 4 tiers, like in EU IV

Tier 1: Post-Napoleonic uniforms. (1821-1840) Belltop Shakos for the British and Americans,
Tier 2: Crimean War Uniforms. (1841-1865) 1855 pattern shakos for the British. Early pickelhaube for Russia and Prussia. Forage Caps
Tier 3: Belle Epoch Uniforms. (1865-1910) Home Service helmet for British. Kepis for Americans and French.
Tier 4: World War 1 uniforms. (1910-1935) Brodies for British. Adrians for the French.

For major colonial powers, it would be nice to have unique uniforms for armies outside Europe and the western Hemisphere, even if it was just 2 tiers (1821-1860, 1861-1935). The British for example would have short shakos with sun covers for Tier 1 and pith helmets for Tier 2. Not only this, but regiments raised in colonies would graphically reflect the native population. Sepoys for regiments raised in India, Askaris in Africa...