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Kovax

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I know the economics are not my strong part in this game but I wonder if part of the problem with capitalists building stupid factories could be solved by letting the profit factor of earlier factories go into account on what to build? Like if there's been already five glass factories that didn't make any profits, then capitalists are less likely to build new such, and five lumber factories that did make a good profit would be an inducement to build new such factories?
That's got both good and bad sides to it. On the plus side, it would reduce the AI's tendency to build more factories of the same type that's already losing money. On the minus side, it could easily lead to the AI overbuilding whatever is profitable at the moment, and then the glut of new factories makes ALL of that type unprofitable due to overproduction.

I agree that the AI should not build new factories while there are closed factories of the same type (note: the AI rarely or never reopens closed factories), but profitable factories shouldn't influence what's built, or else it would tend to limit the diversity of future industries. "Why won't the AI build any glass factories in my country?" Probably because the liquor factories are making money, so the AI is busy building 6 more of them. Never mind that the new factories won't be able to get the imported glass they need, or that the price of liquor will plummet when all 6 new factories start producing. The AI could use some incentive (and certainly no disincentives) to build a new type of factory that doesn't already exist in your country, rather than more of what's already present. It's been pointed out repeatedly in previous posts, but having the AI place a higher emphasis on factories that make use of the region's RGOs would also help.

Laissez Faire or not, the player should be able to build or at least guarantee the solvency of a LIMITED number of factories for essential materials, or designate certain specific industries for AI priority and government subsidies or starting capital. There could be a militancy cost, or an increase in consciousness in competing ideologies, making it less preferable than letting the AI do it, but it shouldn't be impossible.
 

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Does the AI even use the most elementary logic of building factories for goods which are in high demand?
If so, then add to that a heavier weight for it to give priority to factories with dependencies on the local RGOs and at least it would become smarter than it currently is.

The problem I see is that it might create a top down dependency situation where, for example, due to high demand for small arms, it'll build arms factories, which would in turn generate steel and ammo demands, and only then build the steel and ammo factories in the provinces with their RGOs, leading to possibly not the best synergy in your industry.
This could be solved by breaking down every product into their basic RGO, so the AI will weigh for (in that example) sulphur, iron and coal states to build the arms factory, and work from there building ammo and steel factory if the need arises, giving maximum synergy at the end, whenever possible.
 

Gurkhal

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That's got both good and bad sides to it. On the plus side, it would reduce the AI's tendency to build more factories of the same type that's already losing money. On the minus side, it could easily lead to the AI overbuilding whatever is profitable at the moment, and then the glut of new factories makes ALL of that type unprofitable due to overproduction.

I agree that the AI should not build new factories while there are closed factories of the same type (note: the AI rarely or never reopens closed factories), but profitable factories shouldn't influence what's built, or else it would tend to limit the diversity of future industries. "Why won't the AI build any glass factories in my country?" Probably because the liquor factories are making money, so the AI is busy building 6 more of them. Never mind that the new factories won't be able to get the imported glass they need, or that the price of liquor will plummet when all 6 new factories start producing. The AI could use some incentive (and certainly no disincentives) to build a new type of factory that doesn't already exist in your country, rather than more of what's already present. It's been pointed out repeatedly in previous posts, but having the AI place a higher emphasis on factories that make use of the region's RGOs would also help.

Laissez Faire or not, the player should be able to build or at least guarantee the solvency of a LIMITED number of factories for essential materials, or designate certain specific industries for AI priority and government subsidies or starting capital. There could be a militancy cost, or an increase in consciousness in competing ideologies, making it less preferable than letting the AI do it, but it shouldn't be impossible.

I'll take it that you, with a few reservations, agree with me. :)
 

Kovax

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I'll take it that you, with a few reservations, agree with me. :)
I agree with half of your idea, in that factories losing money or already closed should create a disincentive to build more of the same. I see potential problems with prioritizing the types of factories which are making money, because it would tend to lead to a less diverse economy, far more subject to market fluctuations. That part needs some additional thought.
 

Gurkhal

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I agree with half of your idea, in that factories losing money or already closed should create a disincentive to build more of the same. I see potential problems with prioritizing the types of factories which are making money, because it would tend to lead to a less diverse economy, far more subject to market fluctuations. That part needs some additional thought.

Oh, I didn't intend for it to be the only part which would influence capitalists. But that it could be one part in helping with the aspect of capitalists wasting their money on factories which are doomed to fail from the start.
 

Razmorg

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Sorry if this has been said before but I think the game should rebrand and present the focus of industrialization and world war 1 more. When I think of the victorian era all I see is posh people with silly clothes and wigs. It was only after I heard the community liking the game so much that I looked closer and realized what an interesting time period it actually covers. Not sure what you guys think but I really think it'd help to pull in a lot of casuals.
 

Challenge

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That's got both good and bad sides to it. On the plus side, it would reduce the AI's tendency to build more factories of the same type that's already losing money. On the minus side, it could easily lead to the AI overbuilding whatever is profitable at the moment, and then the glut of new factories makes ALL of that type unprofitable due to overproduction.

This actually happens IRL. It happened more in the era of the game than it does now, but it still does happen.

I agree that the AI should not build new factories while there are closed factories of the same type (note: the AI rarely or never reopens closed factories), but profitable factories shouldn't influence what's built, or else it would tend to limit the diversity of future industries. "Why won't the AI build any glass factories in my country?" Probably because the liquor factories are making money, so the AI is busy building 6 more of them. Never mind that the new factories won't be able to get the imported glass they need, or that the price of liquor will plummet when all 6 new factories start producing. The AI could use some incentive (and certainly no disincentives) to build a new type of factory that doesn't already exist in your country, rather than more of what's already present. It's been pointed out repeatedly in previous posts, but having the AI place a higher emphasis on factories that make use of the region's RGOs would also help.

The AI should do a check for raw material availability and/or existing closed factories before building one. While current profitability shouldn't be ignored, the need to supply glass to the liquor industry (using your example) should be part of the equation. I've had a fair amount of luck getting the AI to build where the RGOs help out by using an NF for a specific industry in the region. It doesn't always work, but it does enough for me to think it makes a difference.

Laissez Faire or not, the player should be able to build or at least guarantee the solvency of a LIMITED number of factories for essential materials, or designate certain specific industries for AI priority and government subsidies or starting capital. There could be a militancy cost, or an increase in consciousness in competing ideologies, making it less preferable than letting the AI do it, but it shouldn't be impossible.

I'm not sure guarantees are the right choice, but incentives, subsidies and priorities for specific industries nationally (as opposed to the NA used regionally) would be good. These methods were used during the time period of industrialization and Imperialistic focus. Both the British and US Rail Systems, and steel industries are classic examples of how it worked to speed up development. Although I guess sending the US Army in to face down striking miners or hiring goons to club iron workers could be considered guaranteeing factory solvency and essential materials. It was an ugly time period in many ways.
 

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Sorry if this has been said before but I think the game should rebrand and present the focus of industrialization and world war 1 more. When I think of the victorian era all I see is posh people with silly clothes and wigs. It was only after I heard the community liking the game so much that I looked closer and realized what an interesting time period it actually covers. Not sure what you guys think but I really think it'd help to pull in a lot of casuals.

It's a good idea. Paradox will probably keep Victoria but I think Revolution would be a great name because the game covers
- Industrial revolution
- Russian revolution
- Revolutions of 1848
- Texas revolution
- Glorious Revolution in Spain
- Phillipine revolution
- Argentinean revolution
- Young Turks revolution
- Mexican revolution
- Ukrainian revolution
- German revolution
- Egyptian revolution
- Portuguese revolution

And if the time frame starts earlier
- American revolution
- French revolution
- Haitian revolution
- July revolution
 

Kovax

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Moving the timeframe back a few years to the American and French revolutions, and then splitting the period leading into WWI through the interwar period off into a separate game, might make more sense. Napoleonic warfare and WWI trench warfare really don't have much in common, so having a game that encompasses both seems like one or the other would inevitably suffer from the wrong game mechanics.
 

Vohen

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Moving the timeframe back a few years to the American and French revolutions, and then splitting the period leading into WWI through the interwar period off into a separate game, might make more sense. Napoleonic warfare and WWI trench warfare really don't have much in common, so having a game that encompasses both seems like one or the other would inevitably suffer from the wrong game mechanics.
Well, if you gonna go that route, late medieval and Napoleonic warfare really don't have much in common either, yet both are within the scope of EU.
I think Vic2, for a game not focused mainly on warfare, did a reasonably competent job at representing the transition there, with only the very important omission of the growing impact of logistics.
Of course, there's a lot of room to improve, but I don't think it's enough to warrant a separate game.
It's one of the things that makes me feel like I've come a long way in the game, seeing not only my borders and my economy change, but also the world itself changing, from politics with the rise of communism and fascism to warfare.
 

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1. Being able to stream new troop types into units or armies as they become available. That's how tanks and planes were introduced, first as units attached to the infantry division, later as special units of their own.

2. Trench warfare. At any time after 1860, this can start. Why 1860? Because that's about the time when rifled muskets were widespread and soldiers could no longer stand bravely to take the enemy's volley from 100 paces away. The US Civil War started like that and, within months, troops were rushing to cover instead of standing like Napoleonic grognards. By 1864, trenches surrounded Richmond and trench warfare was a real thing. Vicksburg in 1863 was a similar case with the trenches surrounding the city instead of sprawling out.

The mechanic, as I see it, would involve pressing a button on the army, like the rebel-hunting button. Once pressed, if the unit is attacked, it goes into trench mode. Defense goes up massively, speed goes to zero, and now is a good time to detach cavalry for other purposes. Attacking means going out of trench mode and then enduring massive casualties... but for what?

There should be a ticker on the trench mode that measures how "sticky" the unit is to the province. At max level, none shall pass. As the unit endures combat without being rotated out, it moves closer and closer to crumbling. We already have that somewhat, but the rotation thing is what's needed to work. Tanks, planes, gas, and stormtroopers can cause faster deterioration. Defenders with their own planes and gas, along with lots of artillery, can shore up that value. This makes home production of those elements vital for winning the war. Stockpiles of ammo, artillery, etc. should be exhausted by war and home demand for items like food, opium, meat, fruit, coal, iron and other necessities should be unmet, with corresponding rises in MIL and CON.

Now having colonies and spherelings to hand over those goods really starts to look good. The whole point of scrambling for Africa and Asia is to get enough raw materials - not just oil and rubber - to deal with the coming horror of an *industrialized* war. This is also where players start to feed their pops directly into battle, not just as mobilized units, but setting the bar as far as what pops are hit most for replacements. Workers in armaments can be exempted, but craftsmen in fine clothes factories can wind up on the front, with the factory forced to run at a lower level or go out of business entirely.

Nations facing bankruptcy with the right commerce tech should be able to inflate and hyperinflate in order to keep the war going. We'll need a mechanic for that, as well.

3. Variable end date. Once a proper Great War has run its course and the peace settlement taken care of, the game should be getting ready to wind down, not launch another 3-4 great wars. Often, I've got nothing to do in the 1930s but to click my event spam as I wait for 1936 to show up. If there was an event that ended the game a year after the peace conference, that could be fine with me. Option to continue, of course, but if the game tells me it's OK to end, then I'm OK to end. :)

If not, then we need one more phase to be added to the game.

We all know that at the start, we industrialize. Then, we nationalize (at least the USA, Germans, and Italians do... Austria and Turkey are trying to hold it together and the other nations are watching events as they unfold). After that, we colonize. Then we fight a Great War. After that, we click event spam... no, we need a proper Great Depression. The outcome of the Great War is to cripple the losers and make them pay massive reparations. Well, the banks of the winners NEED those reparations. When the crippled nation can't or won't pay, then the banking crisis commences and that's where the victors face a huge correction.

This is not an event that should reduce stockpiles and increase MIL and CON by +.01% until 1 Jan 1936. This needs to be a set of events with their own mechanics, like colonization. This is where nations reach for radical solutions to resolve their economic woes.

It's also when nations start to face the environmental and human costs of their industrialization. The USA gets a Dust Bowl. Colonizing nations should see lower production from colonies as agitators press for independence. Spherelings are more likely to be errant - and more likely to be targets of sphere lord interventions. This needs to be more than just whack-a-mole against rebels. There needs to be a tie-in with investing in those nations as well as implications for other spherelings/puppets if one doesn't keep *everyone* in line. Let one go, the others take the exact same path.

Do that, and the 20s and 30s can be just as exciting and meaningful as the rest of the decades.
 

Luckierexpert

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It's a good idea. Paradox will probably keep Victoria but I think Revolution would be a great name because the game covers
- Industrial revolution
- Russian revolution
- Revolutions of 1848
- Texas revolution
- Glorious Revolution in Spain
- Phillipine revolution
- Argentinean revolution
- Young Turks revolution
- Mexican revolution
- Ukrainian revolution
- German revolution
- Egyptian revolution
- Portuguese revolution

And if the time frame starts earlier
- American revolution
- French revolution
- Haitian revolution
- July revolution

While I see your reasoning, Victoria covers a lot more than the political upheaval seen between 1836-1936. Economics are one of the most, if not the most, detailed mechanics in Victoria II alongside international diplomacy and influence, both of which fall far outside the Revolution name in my opinion. It sound like a good name for a game, not necessarily a suitable replacement for Victoria.

I also agree that the timeline should be extended but only back to around 1815-1820 in my opinion.
 

demanvanwezel

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reforming the needs of pops: currently a pop has life, everyday and luxury needs

I propose to add a 4th layer: food, which doesn't call for a specific set of goods but rather fish, grain, cattle, fruit, canned goods, etc all go into this, if a pop get's his fill, great he can use his money for more advanced stuff
if he doesn't have enough money or enough food isn't available however then all hell breaks loose, con and mil rise, pops emigrate or just plain starve, socialism, fascism and anarcho-liberalism gain traction, if the affected pop isn't an accepted or primary pop then he might begin thinking that mayhaps a nation which prioritises his kind of people would be a better one here
of course the government could do something to help, unless they don't have the means to, have bigger problems (like say a great war) or there's a party in power which believes in the invisible hand of the market
 

Luckierexpert

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reforming the needs of pops: currently a pop has life, everyday and luxury needs

I propose to add a 4th layer: food, which doesn't call for a specific set of goods but rather fish, grain, cattle, fruit, canned goods, etc all go into this, if a pop get's his fill, great he can use his money for more advanced stuff
if he doesn't have enough money or enough food isn't available however then all hell breaks loose, con and mil rise, pops emigrate or just plain starve, socialism, fascism and anarcho-liberalism gain traction, if the affected pop isn't an accepted or primary pop then he might begin thinking that mayhaps a nation which prioritises his kind of people would be a better one here
of course the government could do something to help, unless they don't have the means to, have bigger problems (like say a great war) or there's a party in power which believes in the invisible hand of the market

I'm not sure how necessary this is, as most of the life needs a pop has are for food, with wool and cattle for clothing and food also being needed:

https://vic2.paradoxwikis.com/Labourers

This could be a reason to expand on available food production for pops, such as including rice or requiring cattle to be processed into meat by farmers for some pops, or having certain cultures of pops having preference for certain foods. I'd also back harsher punishment for ignoring a pops life demands as you've suggested, as a hungry populace gets angry fast.

I'd also argue for more factory types or different manufactories to expand the products that can be produced for pop needs, such as a meat processing plant or plantations for growing certain crops. Some of these lower-tech manufactories could also be available to non-westernised nations to get their economy going and give players something to do rather then just waiting for reforms.
 

Gurkhal

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I'm not sure how necessary this is, as most of the life needs a pop has are for food, with wool and cattle for clothing and food also being needed:

https://vic2.paradoxwikis.com/Labourers

This could be a reason to expand on available food production for pops, such as including rice or requiring cattle to be processed into meat by farmers for some pops, or having certain cultures of pops having preference for certain foods. I'd also back harsher punishment for ignoring a pops life demands as you've suggested, as a hungry populace gets angry fast.

I'd also argue for more factory types or different manufactories to expand the products that can be produced for pop needs, such as a meat processing plant or plantations for growing certain crops. Some of these lower-tech manufactories could also be available to non-westernised nations to get their economy going and give players something to do rather then just waiting for reforms.

This is something I totally agree with. In my experience its very possible to let parts of the population live on the streets for years with no political consequences in exchange for a controlled fiscal policy. A neoliberal's wet dream and frankly something that shouldn't be anything but a prelude to a revolution or civil war.
 

Vohen

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Here's a thought more on the technical side, with tangible consequences to gameplay.
How about most of the calculations, from money to good distributions to pop calculations, happen monthly instead of daily?
I can't help but notice that all these calculations happening daily have a significant effect on performance even on modern CPUs, so reducing their quantity would not only help improve that performance, maybe even by an order of magnitude, but also open space for more intricate mechanics, such as trade routes on map, and bilateral commercial relations/interactions.

Edit: exceptions to that would be deliberate interactions that affect these calculations, such as a decision, event, or a button from another mechanic.
 
Last edited:

grommile

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When I think of the victorian era all I see is posh people with silly clothes and wigs.
Where men's fashion is concerned, that sounds more like the 18th century than even the early 19th :)
 

rob_mtl

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Here are a few proposals:

DIPLOMACY:
- Flexible international treaties and guaranties. In Vic 2, UK allies Belgium. Netherlands allies Prussia. A WW1 level war ensues in 1836. Historically, the UK sat down with Belgium, the Netherlands, and other powers and negotiated a treaty that guaranteed the independence of Belgium and the Netherlands and fixed their borders to prevent a war. Let us do this in a dynamic way in-game.
-Flexible peace treaties: let allies in a war redistribute the spoils of war in a more flexible way. ie. Britain and France win a war against the Central Powers. They break up the German, Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman empires and determine annexed territories and their respective spheres of influence over any newly independent nations.

MILITARY:
- Make forts and garrisons matter. 3000 troops on an island fort should stand a decent chance at repelling 10 x as many invaders. Look up the various sieges of Gibraltar and Malta for examples.
- Peacetime troops should be automatically distributed around your empire. Russia should be able to have a standing army in all their provinces without manually moving stacks around during peacetime. This is how reserve armies worked during peacetime. This should be sufficient for rebel suppression (except in extreme cases) and to hold the line briefly at the start of a major war while mainline divisions mobilize.
-give us an OOB like HOI3 (maybe less complicated, but nonetheless) and some level of AI control for armies beyond "hunt rebels". This can be linked to raising soldier pops. Ie. Russia can choose to automatically send new recruits from Poland to divisions stationed there.
-During peacetime, let us make templates for divisions, corps and armies. Have an automated function that redistributes forces so that they don't go over province supply limits.
-Give us a variety of historical unit types from across the time period. Don't give us 4 types of cavalry, when only 2 types are useful in 90% of the game. Start the period with napoleonic line infantry and grenadiers and progress towards skirmishers, light infantry and stormtroopers by the end of the time period, just like cavalry progresses from dragoons and cuirassiers to hussars.
-Give terrain bonuses to different unit types. Colonial armies should be different from armies based in Europe.
-expand trench warfare. Troops should be spread across the entire front, rather than stacked in certain provinces. We shouldn't see Prussia sieging down Paris while the French army is half way across the continent.
-make naval blockades brutally efficient. In fact, the navy should be more important than the army in this time period, at least until WW1.

GOVERNMENT:
-constitutional monarchies shouldn't have free reign to switch ruling parties. The stability of Britain's monarchy was largely due to them not getting involved in parliament and the democratic process. Forcing an election or putting a different party in power should have severe consequences.

ECONOMY:
-make it possible to have both state and privately owned industries with most government types. Both liberal and conservative parites invested in and subsidized industries and infrastructure to varying degrees.
-make railroad placement matter (and make it linear). Railroads should connect major cities and populated and industrialized areas, not just be spammed all over the place.
-distinguish between cities and other provinces. The industrial revolution was largely a movement of people from the hinterland to the city. Cities should be special provinces that don't produce RGOs but where factories are built and huge populations concentrate. Russia's first factories should be in Moscow, St-Petersburg and Kiev, not in "the most populous province". Urbanization should matter.

TECH:
-make research less railroady. Philosophy shouldn't be the only gateway to research points.