[PROPOSAL] Kaiserreich for East vs West

[Purfa]

Ok then, Australasia's name will be The Commonwealth. Many expatriates that fled Canada settled there and is now a great power in the pacific theatre.

However I still think UoB shouldn't exist if their fleet was sunk. With the Luftstreitkräfte ruling the skies and both german and canadian high seas fleets there's no way Mittleuropa would allow a syndicalist country so near to their core. So, as I told in my edit, UoB should be turned into a UK ruled by the Windsor (or Saxe-Coburg-Gotha), who joined Mittleuropa after the fall of Canada. The only reason I can see that could stop Germany from invading is CSA direct intervention, but at this point, with their whole economy and fleet to be rebuild, it is unlikely.

ETO sounds fine (also remembers NATO xD) and it can be the basis for the creation of the European Union as we know it (or maybe even a European Federation, if the situation allows it).

 

[VI Imre]

However I still think UoB shouldn't exist if their fleet was sunk. With the Luftstreitkräfte ruling the skies and both german and canadian high seas fleets there's no way Mittleuropa would allow a syndicalist country so near to their core. So, as I told in my edit, UoB should be turned into a UK ruled by the Windsor (or Saxe-Coburg-Gotha), who joined Mittleuropa after the fall of Canada. The only reason I can see that could stop Germany from invading is CSA direct intervention, but at this point, with their whole economy and fleet to be rebuild, it is unlikely.

ETO sounds fine (also remembers NATO xD) and it can be the basis for the creation of the European Union as we know it (or maybe even a European Federation, if the situation allows it).

i) Landing in Britain would be hard as most of their expeditionary army was shipped back to Britain from Dunkirk in 1943. They still had an airfleet (mostly consisted out of fighters and interceptors) so if they focus it, it can still cause huge damage for the Kaiserliche Luftwaffe. On other hand a D-Day like Operation Seelöwe in 1944 summer would be nice. But we need to have front/iron curtain (if UoB still exists, it would be steel curtain thanks to the numerous ships) between the Synditern and ETO, or if the cold war turns hot, it turns the 2 Oceans 2 firewalls simply stopping any tries to land in each other's continents.

ii) Mitteleuropa is already a sort of a European Union pact. It didn't terminate after WW2 or got exchanged to ETO. Mitteleuropa became the economy-cooperation and common-trade pact of Europe (people often forget it, but Germany wanted it mainly on this purpose after WW1, not as a mutual defence pact). ETO is a mutual defence pact which can have other members than Europeans (e.g. China is already part of it).

EDIT: refreshed the big map

few changes:
- South Greenland is now a German naval base
- Divided Arnhem province between Germany and Flander-Wallonien (as discussed earlier)
- The Azores are now in German hands
- only the syndicalists have now red colours

 

[razorbird789]

I like the idea of having the UoB survive as a fortress, if it went all out defence it would be possible with the entire nation focused on defence it would probably hold out for a 'peace with honour' situation. I think (unless this has been covered) that the Legation cities should have survived and expanded and be a Japanese puppet that still suffers Triad problems. The Qing is far too large, perhaps Shanqing could have survived in North Yunnan, Xi Bei and Western Shaanxi. Perhaps after the death of it's leader ( i forget his name) it could either turn into the Tian empire and the Ming dynasty, which would have the syupport of the people because they remember the Qing tyranny after the Ming fell. Or if the Ming dynasty fails to gather controll Communist China could appear with OTL Chinese communsim. (Softer and less radical. This could cause a Sino-American split!). I Think the Qing needs enemies surrounding it, more then Japan/Mongolia anyway, HoI games like to bully Chian after all

 

[Moxaz]

Wow! Cool idea! And please no more "Soviet Russia reborn". This is so unoriginal... I prefer to see it as democracy, autocracy or monarchy. Only not Soviet again )))

 

[LiamRiordan]

For UoB to survive, it HAD to pull an OTL scenario of pure air coverage with adequate land defence.

In the KR-TL, it has average air power, very good land forces and a good naval power. The only way Germany could successfully invade is for a decisive battle with the Republican Navy, whilst also taking out a good number of aircraft from the UoB, then the Germans would easily out-attrition the British with her entire army, as well as her allies armies.

Britain needed to have a decisive advantage in the air and sea.

 

[Acesandeights]

I would love to see this happen, so best of luck!

 

[Rakonas]

I don't like the OP's vision, as it's much too historical. The rest of the thread I like a lot and I'll definitely play this mod for East v. West. Good luck!

 

[VI Imre]

I like the idea of having the UoB survive as a fortress, if it went all out defence it would be possible with the entire nation focused on defence it would probably hold out for a 'peace with honour' situation. I think (unless this has been covered) that the Legation cities should have survived and expanded and be a Japanese puppet that still suffers Triad problems. The Qing is far too large, perhaps Shanqing could have survived in North Yunnan, Xi Bei and Western Shaanxi. Perhaps after the death of it's leader ( i forget his name) it could either turn into the Tian empire and the Ming dynasty, which would have the syupport of the people because they remember the Qing tyranny after the Ming fell. Or if the Ming dynasty fails to gather controll Communist China could appear with OTL Chinese communsim. (Softer and less radical. This could cause a Sino-American split!). I Think the Qing needs enemies surrounding it, more then Japan/Mongolia anyway, HoI games like to bully Chian after all

China may seem somewhat united but it still has numerous problems. Most of the Warlords agree to join China at the table however they still cause many problems in the landside, they still have a lot of power (they could keep separate powers, but in EvW they would be just out of the time period). First the Quing Empire will have to fight these troublemakers. Secondly China has huge administrative problems. There entire towns that they don't even know of (like in OTL Russia ). Thirdly industrially they are extremely backwards. It'll certainly take at least 30-40 years to catch up with the world industrial leaders. Although the Legation Cities as free state seems to me an interesting idea.

In this timeline we India is what supposed to be China in the original timeline. Delhi is still at war with the Commune as the game begins, and at the moment the war is in the Commune's favor.

Wow! Cool idea! And please no more "Soviet Russia reborn". This is so unoriginal... I prefer to see it as democracy, autocracy or monarchy. Only not Soviet again )))

No, no more Soviet Russia. I also find this idea very boring. In this scenario Russia has a conservative democratic administration, they are very isolationists and have close ties with the Orthodox Church.

For UoB to survive, it HAD to pull an OTL scenario of pure air coverage with adequate land defence.

In the KR-TL, it has average air power, very good land forces and a good naval power. The only way Germany could successfully invade is for a decisive battle with the Republican Navy, whilst also taking out a good number of aircraft from the UoB, then the Germans would easily out-attrition the British with her entire army, as well as her allies armies.

Britain needed to have a decisive advantage in the air and sea.

The British fleet is almost non-existent, it was decisively defeated by the combined Canadian and German fleets in 1944. On the other hand they have a large airfleet (even a bit overpowered), as most of the remaining 'old' Syndicalist air division have flown into Britain after Italy, France and Iberia finally surrendered. Also in '43 most of the British expeditionary forces have returned home and unlike in OTL Britain has no more foreign interests/colonies thus they stayed at home.

I would love to see this happen, so best of luck!

I don't like the OP's vision, as it's much too historical. The rest of the thread I like a lot and I'll definitely play this mod for East v. West. Good luck!

Thank you!

 

[Purfa]

So I'll edit the first post with the changes made above (doing it in the evening, I'm at the university now),

 

[Purfa]

Edited the first post!

 

[Purfa]

Another little thing: as CSA invaded Caribbean federation, I think Brazil should have taken over Guyana due to the vacuum of power.

 

[VI Imre]

Another little thing: as CSA invaded Caribbean federation, I think Brazil should have taken over Guyana due to the vacuum of power.

Either that or Guyana should be free state on her own, still led by the Caribbean administration.

And I forgot to colour Gotland to Danish (Götland in this case ) in the current version of the map. I'll correct it in the next version.

 

[Purfa]

So, are there any KR developers out there who will accept to have their mod hystory to be developed like this in a future mod for EvW? If so, I'll post this in the right section.

 

[Gukpa]

I was just thinking about the same however I've made some adjustments keeping the best parts of your ideas and adding some of my best Kaiserreich games so far.
Firstly we need 2 strong alliances to actually have a cold war. Therefore CSA wins in America. Secondly we need a longer WW2 or else it won't be a WW at all.

CSA - After winning the Second Civil War in 1942 they run over California and started to rebuild the nation. In 1944 when most of the fleet of the Union of Britain was annihilated by the united Canadian and German High Sees Fleets they requested the aid of CSA who agreed on the terms that they can annex Canada. By 1945 summer Canada was removed from the map despite all of her efforts to revive/save Democracy. CSA became the leader of the 'modern' Synditern with her military might and industrial power.

France - the original home of Syndicalism. By 1939 they have assembled many states of Europe to avenge the first WW1 on Germany and of course to liberate the hell out of everyone. The 'early' Synditern consisted of France, Britain, Southern Italy, Ukraine, Netherlands, Union Anarquista Iberica and Scandinavia. In September 1st 1939 France demanded Elsaß-Lotharingen from Germany who didn't give into the demands. In two weeks they blitzed through most of Northern Italy. The Northern Italian forces held on the Milan-Padua line till the end of the war. In 1940 Flanders-Wallonien was conquered and divided with the Netherlands. Switzerland was attacked as well to take Romandy, with a mayor success taking Genéve. By 1941 most of the Germans were pushed out of Elsaß-Lotharingen and the even Essen was just in an arms-length. '42 Finland, Austria, Poland, Hungary and Bulgaria joined the war, the frontlines are frozen. 1942-43 winter, heavy fighting in Essen and Saarbrücken (OTL Stalingrad), the tide has clearly turned, the Germans started to push into Groningen, Netherlands. In 1943 summer the Netherlands fell, by winter the Mitteleuropa forces reach Lille in France and Genova in Italy dividing the European Synditern. On May 23rd 1944 Paris fell, the French government moved into Bordeaux. At the end of August most of what's left of the French forces got encircled in Tours. A week later France capitulated. On October 10th 1944 Naples and on December 20th Madrid followed the French leaving England alone (don't worry I didn't forget Scandinavia and Ukraine) and effectively ending WW2.

Union of Britain - in 1945 being backed by the CSA and losing an enemy on their Western shores they settled the peace with honour with Germany. As part of the agreement Shetland has become a German naval base. On September 2nd 1945 the guns finally fell silent (without any nukes used). Although most of the nation was in utter destruction thanks to the constant German bombing (V2s since 1943) and most of their fleet was lost (no CV left), they have survived the second world war and are ready to rebuild by American help.

The Netherlands and Flanders-Wallonien - Flanders-Wallonia was lost early in the war and divided by France (Wallonia and Luxemburg) and the Netherlands (Flanders). After the war the former Belgium was re-liberated and divided the Netherlands with Germany. Also annexed French Flanders. Germany annexed Eastern Wallonia, a former part of Belgium.

Scandinavia - before '42 they were the most inactive part of the Synditern but '42 Finland (national populist) joined on the side of Germany hoping even more conquest. The disorganized Scandinavian armies were crushed by the very well trained and war experienced (Russian war) Finnish forces. In 1943 spring a small Danish-German expeditionary force returning from the Ukrainian front has taken the shores at Malmö. By early summer Stockholm fell and in September Scandinavia surrendered. Finland acquired Lappland. Sweden and Norway reborn with the return of their kings in exile from Berlin.

Russia - during the second war against the Bolsheviks they won by the help of Belarus and Finland who were rewarded with Karelia and Magilov-Polotsk. Ukraine and the Don-Kouban Republic also seized some lands on the borders. After the war Russia returned into extreme isolationism. Later on they were able to demand back some territories from Mongolia.

Poland , Belarus and Lithuania - during 1940 they tried to turn away from Germany with however they get badly beaten by the little forces left by Germany in Prussia and the Baltic Duchy. Unfortunately for Germany it opened a direct second front towards Ukraine who fast pushed the few German forces back into Vilnius. In 1942 Germany agreed the Polish demands in West Ukraine and Belarus Poland and signed the Mitteleuropa aggreement. They were also joined by the Hungarian and Bulgarian forces returning from the 4th Balkan war. April 3rd 1943 Ukraine surrendered. The Lithuanian King in exile returned to the thone of Lithuania. Poland chose Mindugas as their king, restoring the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, under the guarantee of Mittleuropa.

4th Balkan Wars - Hungary, Bulgaria, Montenegro (Hungarian puppet, form 1945 free state) and Albania won the war against Romania, Serbia and Greece in 1942. Collaborate Kings were installed. Albania got Ionia, Bulgaria got Nis, Constanta and the Danube Delta and Ukraine occupied Ismail after 1943. Romania has most of her claims on Hungary, Serbia on Macedonia and Vojvodina and Greece on Korerce and Makedonia. In 1962 (20 years later) a plebiscite should take place in all of these terratories (except for Constanta).

Hungary-Croatia - After the Ausgleich war the two formed a new dualist state. Croatia cosists of Bosnia, Dalmatia and Croatia main while Hungary conists of Transylvania, Banat and Hungary main regions. Since both Croatia and Hungary are multi-ethnic, unlike in Bohemia, magyarisation and croatisation were enstated. It is very likely to have ethnic uprisings. How effective such a state can be is still the matter of the future.

Arabian War - Egypt and Arabia (the Saudis united the whole peninsula) and the Kurd rebels gave the final stab to the sick man of Europe. After the war Egypt signed the German-Arab naval agreement for leasing the Suez canal for 50 more years. Aden was returned to Arabia. Greece also got all of her isles back.

Mittelafrika and South Africa - turned their back on Europe, extremist nationalist states. (Mittelafrika is not any more a puppet of Germany)

India - the war still rages between Delhi and the Syndies (should be something like OTL China).

New France - after the fall of Canada and the Entente they agreed to the demands of Germany and finally returned to Europe.

Quing Empire - with the Sino-German agreement (lots of resources to Germany, Chinese scientists trained in Germany) in 1942 the road became clear for the reunification of China. By late 1945 all of the warrior clans have finally bought back under one house.

Causcaus - totalist state, and the last syndicalist state in Europe however they are in extreme isolationism. Thanks to their radical views not even the Synditern befriends them. (Mostly like OTL North Korea after 1990 )

Israel - Madagascar turned into the new home of the Jewish people, proclaiming their own free state.

Centro-America / Mexico - Mexico is a puppet of the CSA, Centro-America is part of the Synditern. The earlier paternal autocratic government of Mexico was crushed by CA and the CSA.

Indonesia - currently German puppet state created after the fall of the Netherlands

La Plata / Brasil - Chile joined La Plata seeing the growing syndi threat. Brasil and La Plata were preparing for war but Brasil had a democrtic coup. Bolivia was left alone and fell fast under the pressure of La Plata. Brasil and La Plata have entered into a non-agression pact.

EDIT: didn't colour most of Pacific isles, I don't know which one should who get, there are just too many of them .

I don't will say nothing,this is AWESOME!

 

[Orpheus II]

I love the idea and support it whole heartily but I think a Entente victory is more interesting than a Mittleeuropa one. But perhaps the Entente still lost on some fronts, so France and India are still Syndicalists, but the British Empire is rebuilt and Japan is powerful. The Canada/USA border would be our equivalent to the iron curtain, with your set up there isn't really a front line. But I agree that the CSA should have won in america.

So maybe factions could be:
Entente:
Japan, the British Empire and White Russia
VS
The International:
CSA, France, Iberia and India

 

[Zhetone]

The Entente never wins with AI working alone, though. That would be unrealistic.

 

[VI Imre]

So, are there any KR developers out there who will accept to have their mod hystory to be developed like this in a future mod for EvW? If so, I'll post this in the right section.

Yeah, would be nice if some Kaiserreich developers dropped by and declared this as a possible continuation of their magnificent project.

I don't will say nothing,this is AWESOME!

Thank you!

I love the idea and support it whole heartily but I think a Entente victory is more interesting than a Mittleeuropa one. But perhaps the Entente still lost on some fronts, so France and India are still Syndicalists, but the British Empire is rebuilt and Japan is powerful. The Canada/USA border would be our equivalent to the iron curtain, with your set up there isn't really a front line. But I agree that the CSA should have won in america.

So maybe factions could be:
Entente:
Japan, the British Empire and White Russia
VS
The International:
CSA, France, Iberia and India

The Entente never wins with AI working alone, though. That would be unrealistic.

As Zhetone said, the Entente coming back is unlikely and can only be done by an experienced player. We also have a steel curtain blockading most of Britain by the ETO and wall of Latin nations in South America preventing any more syndicalist aggression coming through (at least when the game begins).

And the Canada-CSA iron curtain in the scenario that you've mentioned is IMHO implausible since it's not like in Europe with tens of millions of people on both sides. The CSA is at least 5 times bigger in population than Canada (~150 million CSA vs ~30 million Canada) and they would simply push over Canada (except if Canada has nuclear weaponry which again is very unlikely with such small population and thus intelligentsia base by 1946).

 

[Zhetone]

A likely scenario with post-war Canada would be that the population simply gives up in trying to "liberate" Britain and could, perhaps, either ignore their former care for that mission or declare themselves a new Britain in some way, essentially becoming the permanent head of the Entente? Either way, it wouldn't be likely to survive and would have most probably been devoured by the CSA assuming it was allied with the French syndicalists.

What should be avoided is a simple plastering of new names onto our timeline as some have proposed. We shouldn't have "communists versus democracies." If Kaiserreich had been Nazis versus Democracy as it essentially was in our timeline, I don't think I'd like it as much. Most certainly it shouldn't be that way this time around, either, if it exists. It needs something new. Something which seems so crazily different from our timeline but also makes sense in a way. We don't need a USSR. We don't need a British Empire, nor do we need a French empire. The "evil bloc" could be the Germans, who have puppeted Western Europe much as the USSR did to the East. The Eastern Europeans, stern nationalists in many respects but opposed to German interference in their affairs, could be a reluctant helping hand to whoever opposes the Germans, most likely a strange melange of Syndicalists/Communists and Asian states, perhaps with Russia at their helm.

If we're continuing from KR, France being a free state seems impossible. The Entente would not have been strong enough to stop the Germans from creating a puppet state. The Germans would have secured control over Western Europe unless their allies turned on them, which would ruin the scenario anyways as it wouldn't be sensible. Africa would probably be led by Mittelafrika, with National France probably being led by natives after the collapse of the Entente. It provides an interesting scenario in which the native Africans could liberate the rest of the continent. South Africa would probably remain controlled by whites due to its isolationism, so it could be neutral or work against both sides covertly. Egypt could take two paths - liberating Africa with the natives or perhaps trying to create a pan-Arab state? Arabia would be opposed, I assume. Turkey would be German aligned, naturally, providing a nice counter-weight to Eastern Europe's assumed anti-Germanic sentiments. Ukraine, for the sake of balance, should start out neutral and the Austrian hegemony should be coming to an end, with each state under them coming close to full independence. Much could be done in Asia.

 

[Purfa]

What should be avoided is a simple plastering of new names onto our timeline as some have proposed. We shouldn't have "communists versus democracies." If Kaiserreich had been Nazis versus Democracy as it essentially was in our timeline, I don't think I'd like it as much. Most certainly it shouldn't be that way this time around, either, if it exists. It needs something new. Something which seems so crazily different from our timeline but also makes sense in a way. We don't need a USSR. We don't need a British Empire, nor do we need a French empire. The "evil bloc" could be the Germans, who have puppeted Western Europe much as the USSR did to the East. The Eastern Europeans, stern nationalists in many respects but opposed to German interference in their affairs, could be a reluctant helping hand to whoever opposes the Germans, most likely a strange melange of Syndicalists/Communists and Asian states, perhaps with Russia at their helm.

I don't think we'll ever see one of the blocks as the "evil" one: both have their pros and cons and both struggle to win power over the world; the Syndies want the people of the world to rule themselves, whereas ETO is more likely a cooperation pact between many nations of the world and the core Europa block. Yes, Europa may seem like the democracies of our timeline, but always think it has been created by semi authoritarian regimes like the one of Wilhelm III. But we're in 1946, and even the Kaiser Wilhelm IV is more liberal than ever as the governments around Europa: maybe these will turn nationalistic and break the continental union, or can join togheter in an European Empire/Union, we still don't know. What we're discussing here is how to set the stage, the "history" will only be written after this.

About France, what we decided to do is sorta of a compromise between Germany and National France: France will have a german King (François von Hannover) but will have a democratically elected friendly government. So France still keeps its african colonies, while holding also the Exagone. But Mittleafrika has gone rogue, turning its apartheid back against Germany and living like South Africa.

About Egypt and Arabia, I've got a pair of shots I want to save for the time we will write down the history of the mod

 

[VI Imre]

A likely scenario with post-war Canada would be that the population simply gives up in trying to "liberate" Britain and could, perhaps, either ignore their former care for that mission or declare themselves a new Britain in some way, essentially becoming the permanent head of the Entente? Either way, it wouldn't be likely to survive and would have most probably been devoured by the CSA assuming it was allied with the French syndicalists.

What should be avoided is a simple plastering of new names onto our timeline as some have proposed. We shouldn't have "communists versus democracies." If Kaiserreich had been Nazis versus Democracy as it essentially was in our timeline, I don't think I'd like it as much. Most certainly it shouldn't be that way this time around, either, if it exists. It needs something new. Something which seems so crazily different from our timeline but also makes sense in a way. We don't need a USSR. We don't need a British Empire, nor do we need a French empire. The "evil bloc" could be the Germans, who have puppeted Western Europe much as the USSR did to the East. The Eastern Europeans, stern nationalists in many respects but opposed to German interference in their affairs, could be a reluctant helping hand to whoever opposes the Germans, most likely a strange melange of Syndicalists/Communists and Asian states, perhaps with Russia at their helm.

If we're continuing from KR, France being a free state seems impossible. The Entente would not have been strong enough to stop the Germans from creating a puppet state. The Germans would have secured control over Western Europe unless their allies turned on them, which would ruin the scenario anyways as it wouldn't be sensible. Africa would probably be led by Mittelafrika, with National France probably being led by natives after the collapse of the Entente. It provides an interesting scenario in which the native Africans could liberate the rest of the continent. South Africa would probably remain controlled by whites due to its isolationism, so it could be neutral or work against both sides covertly. Egypt could take two paths - liberating Africa with the natives or perhaps trying to create a pan-Arab state? Arabia would be opposed, I assume. Turkey would be German aligned, naturally, providing a nice counter-weight to Eastern Europe's assumed anti-Germanic sentiments. Ukraine, for the sake of balance, should start out neutral and the Austrian hegemony should be coming to an end, with each state under them coming close to full independence. Much could be done in Asia.

Ah I see, you haven't read the story behind the map on the previous pages.

Some corrections to your current views over the map:
- Germany is the leader of the Democracies and Semi-democracies (Authoritarian Democracy, e.g. Germany where the Kaiser still has a final saying in most affairs). Germany is NOT nazi!
- CSA is the leader of the Syndicalist block (and they are not as radical in political viewpoint as the USSR was)
- Germany allowed the return of the French government after Canada fell and thus the Entente finally collapsed, although the French had to make some concessions like removing their claims on Elsass-Lotharingen and giving Tunisia to Italy.
- China is in German block while Japan, Russia and The Commonwealth are neutrals
- India is the OTL China with the Commune and Delhi still at war
- Central and Eastarn Europe is composed of neutrals (Don-Kouban, Serbia, Romania, Montenegro, Albania, Greece, Finland, Norway, Sweden and Denmark) and ETO members (Germany, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Hungary-Croatia, Poland-Lithuania, Bulgaria, Belarus and Ukraine)
- Mittelafrika and South Africa are allies, Mittelafrika left Mitteleuropa during WW2. Both of them are right wing radicals.
- Kurdistan, Arabia and Egypt defeated the Ottomans on their own, dividing the Levant, Iraq and Syria. Germany signed a naval pact to lease the Suez Canal from Egypt for 50 more years.