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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Darrigan

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Hello!

What about interrealm alliances? Wouldn't they make the game more interesting? But before you go "Interwhat alliagddsqs???", let me give you a example:

Right now, while playing f.e. the duke of Brabant, you can marry the daughter of the count of Flanders. This will show the Flemish count as your ally under the alliances tab, but you won't be able to call him to war. That's because he's a vassal of the king of France, while you're a vassal of the Holy Roman Emperor. You're both in a different realm, and thus cannot join eachother's wars.

Interrealm alliances did exist historically, but are not allowed by the game. Yet, I don't think this would be very hard to implement. That's why I propose that they are made possible in a future patch. Though, with limitations based on crown authority. Here's my idea:

Autonomous CA: One can call an ally from another realm to war/accept an offer from a foreign ally to join a war, and can accept call to arms/join a war.
Limited CA: One can call an ally from another realm to war/accept an offer from a foreign ally to join a war, and can accept call to arms/join a war.
Medium CA: One can NOT call an ally from another realm to war/accept an offer from a foreign ally to join a war, but can accept call to arms/join a war.
High CA: One can NOT call an ally from another realm to war/accept an offer from a foreign ally to join a war, and can NOT accept call to arms/join a war.
Absolute CA: One can NOT call an ally from another realm to war/accept an offer from a foreign ally to join a war, and can NOT accept call to arms/join a war.

Example: France has medium CA, while the HRE has limited CA. Brabant is at war with Gelre and allied to Flanders. The crown laws of the HRE allow Brabant to pull in his Flemish buddy, and the French laws allow Flanders to go aid foreign allies. Result: Flanders can be called to arms by Brabant.

The opposite wouldn't be possible. Brabant would be allowed to join the war of a foreign ally, but wars within the French kingdom cannot be joined by outsiders. Result: Flanders will have to solve his mess on its own.

So, fellow forumites, would you like to see such mechanism? Is there something you would change? Or do you simply despise the idea?

[EDIT: it seems that since I first made this post back in Nov 2013, a few things have changed. You can now call in an ally from another realm if you are fighting an independent enemy (f.e.: the HRE-vassal duke of Brabant can attack the independent king of England and call in his ally the French vassal "duke" of Flanders). However, it still seems impossible to call in a foreign ally while attacking a fellow vassal (like the Brabant vs Gelre example above). Still hoping that this will be possible (in CK3), as it would result in a more dynamic and interesting web of alliances, and will also give a vassal player more things to do if they could get involved in minor wars between other vassals of other realms.]
 
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sealy300

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Yes, yes and yes. + over 9000
 

justin6477

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Didn't we have them before? I seem to recall oddities like Harold marrying his daughter to the King of France, only for the Capet to roflstomp William's Normandy.

Anyways, I like the idea of CA reflecting the state of the realm, making low CA almost akin to completely sovereign princes.
 

Waspinator

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I really like this idea, sounds good.
 

Snozzle91

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I like the idea! It would make for an even more complicated game... but ehi, we got this far, might well go the extra mile.
 

Hennenz

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Hopefully stuff like this gets added with the mythical vassal dlc.
 

Dracko81

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Good in theory, but terrible in practice. Lets say you call the Duke of flanders into a war for some random county in HRE. They bring over their troops and everything is going great. HRE becomes engaged in war with France, since you are both vassals of hostile powers, you become hostile to each other and wipe each others troops out, losing you the war.

This is I believe exactly what used to happen and used to result in stupid things like this happening all the time.
 

Knightfall52

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The core issue with alliances is that without a limiting factor (Marriage, same dynasty etc) every1 will end up being allied with every1 and you as the player would just end up getting the short shaft of micromanaging to try to get the same result as the AI, so since alliance with every1 is pretty much the same as alliance with no1 they use the current mechanics to make it so you have only a limited amount of possible alliances.
 

TSSL

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I'd really like to see this. It'd be nice in general for there to be more possibility to marry outside one's own realm when a vassal.

As for situations like Dracko81 outlines, perhaps there could be some events related to that... could be interesting drama... or maybe they could just code it so that allied armies are still friendly even when their lieges (not themselves directly) are at war. And maybe then have an event chain related to the liege asking the vassal to betray their ally or something like that. I'm sure there'd be ways to make it work.
 

dauncosony

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Good in theory, but terrible in practice. Lets say you call the Duke of flanders into a war for some random county in HRE. They bring over their troops and everything is going great. HRE becomes engaged in war with France, since you are both vassals of hostile powers, you become hostile to each other and wipe each others troops out, losing you the war.

This is I believe exactly what used to happen and used to result in stupid things like this happening all the time.
This is why things are tested out, refined, then tested again, etc. Even then, CKII's liege-vassal system is pretty simple and at the moment cannot handle things like interrealm alliance, but that doesn't mean there's the possibility for further refinement/additions (for example: College of Cardinals, de jure Drift, strong/weak claims, retinues, etc.)
 

Dracko81

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I'd really like to see this. It'd be nice in general for there to be more possibility to marry outside one's own realm when a vassal.

As for situations like Dracko81 outlines, perhaps there could be some events related to that... could be interesting drama... or maybe they could just code it so that allied armies are still friendly even when their lieges (not themselves directly) are at war. And maybe then have an event chain related to the liege asking the vassal to betray their ally or something like that. I'm sure there'd be ways to make it work.
Basically giving them the option to rebel on the spot won't work either, because rebelling against war target is still hostile. You could have them disband their troops, but they could be using a retinue stack in there. As I said it used to be like this, I even made several bug reports in relations to many strange situations. Personally I think it does miss some interesting circumstances, like picking to help a rebelling vassal that your liege is actually trying to help put down, which I have done in previous versions. But in that circumstance I was actually still hostile to my allie because my liege was still my liege, so my troops just killed his troops and I stayed away from my allie.

There are so many little things which affect who you are hostile towards, overall I think the way it is now is fine, but there would need to be much thought put into reworking war mechanics in the game and I do not think it would a small task - perhaps reworking/improvement in patch with later dlc?
 

Raii

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Maybe giving them "exile" status like what exists in EU4? It would protect them from being instantly attacked, and then have a modifier remove them from your war at the same time. It may not be historical, but seeing as how you can't have troops in enemy land when you declare war, it would make sense for them to have to return home before being a part of it.
 

Ezumiyr

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The core issue with alliances is that without a limiting factor (Marriage, same dynasty etc) every1 will end up being allied with every1 and you as the player would just end up getting the short shaft of micromanaging to try to get the same result as the AI, so since alliance with every1 is pretty much the same as alliance with no1 they use the current mechanics to make it so you have only a limited amount of possible alliances.
You didn't read the proposal. Alliances would be still based on marriage. The difference would be that you could have allies within an other realm.
Which is a good idea and makes me think of the mega-war system in the AGoT mod.
 

Darrigan

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  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
The core issue with alliances is that without a limiting factor (Marriage, same dynasty etc) every1 will end up being allied with every1 and you as the player would just end up getting the short shaft of micromanaging to try to get the same result as the AI, so since alliance with every1 is pretty much the same as alliance with no1 they use the current mechanics to make it so you have only a limited amount of possible alliances.
As Ezumiyr said: alliances would still be based on marriages, but in this proposal you can call allies from another realm to war.

Good in theory, but terrible in practice. Lets say you call the Duke of flanders into a war for some random county in HRE. They bring over their troops and everything is going great. HRE becomes engaged in war with France, since you are both vassals of hostile powers, you become hostile to each other and wipe each others troops out, losing you the war.

This is I believe exactly what used to happen and used to result in stupid things like this happening all the time.
This indeed should be worked around. I like the idea of an event chain. At first the two armies stay friendly to each other. (Which would make sense: the dukes are not at war, their lieges are.) Sure they provide levies to their overlords, but they are treated as armies of the liege, not of the vassals. The King could ask that his vassal stops supporting the foreign duke, though.

Or better yet: When France and the HRE are at war, all vassal armies of both the emperor and the king are hostile to the ROYAL/IMPERIAL armies, but not to the personnal armies of dukes in the other realm. That way dukes can support their liege and fight in the war of a duke in the hostile realm at the same time.