Proposal: Imperial Senates

[Alcadizzar19]

So my proposed idea is that one of the things Imperial Administration should bring is the addition of a College of Cardinals-esque function of an Imperial Senate, not just to the ERE though, but to all states which adopt Imperial Administration.

While the Senate of Rome was increasingly less powerful as the dominate progressed, it still retained an important symbolic, as well as constitutional, role within the Empire until 1204 when the 4th Crusade happened. It was not revived afterwards, however this is, understandably, due to how the whole imperial remnant was a shambles after that debacle. The Senate was involved in the election of the emperors Leo I and Heraclius, among others, as well as financing the Nika riots and other revolts plus it researched, drafted and suggested legislation. So what would this entail?

The framework of the College of Cardinals would be the guide. Obviously since there can't be hundreds, or even thousands as it was at the greatest extent, of senators in the game there would have to be an electoral system like the republican succession and the CoC succession for about a dozen or so positions to be held by viceroys of both ducal rank and kingly rank. The Senate would have a top tier position, elected among the elected senators, which while historically was called Prefect of the City, makes more sense as just titled Consul or Prefect in gameplay terms. This top tier position would have with it a powerful tax framework whereby the monies generated by the Senators would go to him rather than the Emperor if the Consul disliked the Emperor. Much like how now a vassal Pope or anti-Pope will pay gathered taxes to his Imperial liege unless he dislikes him.

Furthermore you could be hailed by the Senate of your Empire as either a hero or a tyrant to effect their symbolic role and this would give an opinion malus or bonus. Some people would say "symbolic" power is no such thing, however even if they have little capability to raise troops themselves, if your Senate calls you a horrendous tyrant, that could easily sway other vassals to dislike you too. Or the opposite as well.

Now, does this serve some game function that is currently lacking? Not really, no. But it would easily flesh out Imperial Administration more (rather than just being a flat increase to the number of vassals you can have) and much of the framework does exist and the Roman Senate still existed for much of the game's timeline.

 

[Dahoota]

I agree that the Senate is pretty insignificant at this point, and hardly worth the resources to add.

(Day dreaming here) Maybe though the implementation though could be as an honourary and hereditary title that gives characters a vote when changing laws, available in all imperial admins. A max number of senator titles based on total holdings in the realm, Dukes and below would not have a vote per se, but all starting Dukes would have the title, excluding foreign/new regional rulers from voting unless it's granted to them.

One institution that could be added that is missing from the Byzzies is co-emperors. The implementation could just be as simple as, if you elect to have one, you use half the stats of the co-ruler instead of your wife's. Perhaps the only candidate being your heir. Just a thought.

 

[Jephery]

I think a Senate/Parliament system would be nice in general. Call them Noble Assemblies as a general catch all.

The period saw both the end of the Roman Senate and the beginnings of the English Parliament, Polish Sejm, French Estates General, Holy Roman Reichstags, Spanish Cortes, etc.

 

[darthfanta]

So what use is this parliament to gameplay?What I mean is what is this parliament supposed to do in game?If you are talking about passing laws, isn't the parliament already there considering you need over half your vassals' approval to pass a law?

 

[Lord Valentine]

So what use is this parliament to gameplay?What I mean is what is this parliament supposed to do in game?If you are talking about passing laws, isn't the parliament already there considering you need over half your vassals' approval to pass a law?

Parliament would only really make sense IMHO if they also drastically remodeled warfare to more accurately portray it's evolution in the later middle ages.
From the High to Late Middle ages there was a drift away from sometimes very numerous feudal levies making up the rulers armies, to smaller forces of mercenaries or at least semi-professional part time soldiers that where hired for a campaign or two. This was in no small part due to the fact that fortifications had reached such levels of sophistication that you needed specialized troops who did not want to go home after their 30 or 40 days of service that they owed each year under a feudal contract, to crack them. This in turn lead rulers to increase the tax burden not only on peasants and burghers but also on the landowning class. They in turn didn't put up with it for too long and demanded to have a say in the taxes being levied and there you go, parliament, Reichstag, Estates Generale, or whatever you want to call them are born (or assume new significance).

So in essence I think you'd have to devalue the military utility of levies later in the game to make the player more dependent on mercs and retinues and then have hin contend with his vassals in parliament to organize the pay of those greedy pricks!

 

[darthfanta]

Parliament would only really make sense IMHO if they also drastically remodeled warfare to more accurately portray it's evolution in the later middle ages.
From the High to Late Middle ages there was a drift away from sometimes very numerous feudal levies making up the rulers armies, to smaller forces of mercenaries or at least semi-professional part time soldiers that where hired for a campaign or two. This was in no small part due to the fact that fortifications had reached such levels of sophistication that you needed specialized troops who did not want to go home after their 30 or 40 days of service that they owed each year under a feudal contract, to crack them. This in turn lead rulers to increase the tax burden not only on peasants and burghers but also on the landowning class. They in turn didn't put up with it for too long and demanded to have a say in the taxes being levied and there you go, parliament, Reichstag, Estates Generale, or whatever you want to call them are born (or assume new significance).

So in essence I think you'd have to devalue the military utility of levies later in the game to make the player more dependent on mercs and retinues and then have hin contend with his vassals in parliament to organize the pay of those greedy pricks!

Couldn't you already tax them just by passing feudal tax?

 

[Lord Valentine]

Yup, but my main point of contention is that CK 2 doesn't address the changes in society and military configuration that happened in the latter middle ages at all. I mean you see large kingdoms raise stacks raging between 30k and 60k large in an era where armies where actually becoming far smaller. Henry V probably hat 15.000 men with him on his Agioncourt campaign at best.

Also just giving your vassal a - x relationship modifier is a very crude and inelegant way of modeling this, especially as feudal taxation in itself is a bit of an anachronism. The nobility did not allow itself to be taxed (in any significant way) on a permanent basis. Which is again why you had feudal assemblies where they voted their monarchs singular taxes for a very specific purpose (usually a war). If you created the need for additional financial resources to fund more professional soldiers who wipe the floor with feudal levies and had to carefully manange your leading subjects in parliament to do so, I think it would make the later game a lot more interesting.

Anyway that is a feature that I think would ad a lot more than window-dressing by adding institutions that had little practical meaning like the Senate of Constantinople.

 

[Itphings_Monk]

To be honest the first thing I thought of when I saw your title was Star Wars . I decided to skim over your post on search of a Star Wars joke but I'm surprised no one made that joke yet. Anyone know how to post a video of the Senate from star wars?

[video=youtube_share;Lo4cFViNLes]http://youtu.be/Lo4cFViNLes[/video]