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NewbieOne

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Dec 4, 2011
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I'd like to suggest a couple of changes, enhancements really, to holy orders, to make them more realistic and add flavour. (Would gladly pay for an appropriate DLC, just in a case.)

1. Change of name from 'Holy Orders' (which is basically priesthood with its degrees) to 'Knightly Orders' or similar. Not overly important but would be welcome for reason as above.
2. Some courtiers/vassals of a grandmaster being normal courtiers/vassals while some (most) being members of the order with the Celibate trait and with different names of titles. The title across the tiers below grandmaster would always be some variety of commander, anyway (land masters presided over kingdom-sized districts). Given that grandmasters are dukes themselves (which is a very appropriate place for them to be), something like a landmeister would need to be a count and that'd be too low considering he ruled one province. Basically, it'd be commander for baron and commander something for count. Just no "grand commander" because it's a unique office. "High Commander/County Commander" would work, even though ahistorical, "Province Commander" or "Provincial Commander" would be even better". There is, of course no reason why a grandmaster shouldn't have a normal count or baron for vassal, but the normal tendency would be for this to be rarer than normal commandries.
3. Those aforementioned special characters, being Celibate and representing professed knights (vows and all), could have the Crusader trait regardless of actually participating in an official crusade. Or some different trait to denote such membership. Such characters could perhaps be found in non-Order courts under some special rules (not the usual dislike liege/have claim/get gift routine, as it would make no sense here). They would represent permanent envoys attached to a noble's court or Templars/Hospitallers/Others on a (semi-)permanent leave (e.g. sick leave), not the modern Malta membership for aristocrats or anything of the sort. The latter would be the half-brother status and trait (which could play the role of a badge, historically).
4. Other characters could gain the half-brother trait in some specific circumstances. Those would include male vassals who are normal barons or counts, donors (land or perhaps money), possibly some events. These people were historically associated on a relatively loose basis, no vow of poverty or celibacy, they participated in combat with the brothers, could perhaps be buried in the mantle of the order etc. A bit like third orders (tertiaries). People like Arn Magnusson :)laugh:) would fall under here.
5. The strict vow of obedience should reduce a number of revolt opportunities for such special vassals or courtiers (e.g. lower chance of revolt when revoking title), especially when explicitly, formally called upon.
6. Minor titles could be altered from the standard bunch and include Grand Hospitaller, Grand Turcoplier, Grand Commander, Commander of the City of Jerusalem (unique rank for Templars, not really just a prestigious local commander but more like a central office) but awardable only to members (excluding non-member vassals). Marshal necessarily a member (it was a high dignity within the order's structure). Minor titles and certain council positions influencing the chance to be elected grandmaster.
7. Joining an order as a full brother means you can't inherit or otherwise acquire new titles (or at any rate you'd at least need a permanent regent but exclusion from succession wouldn't be too much of a simplification), barring maybe High Almoner when attached to a noble's court.
8. Below grandmaster there is no independence as long as remaining a member (a member's got to have the grandmaster as liege). (I.e. no independent commanders but always grandmaster as liege.)
9. Grandmasters or order member vassals can't be called to war by relatives and generally not by co-vassals. But increased chance of getting involved in holy war defence.
10. Member characters can sometimes transfer to a normal religious order and stop being available in the game (generally as punishment but not always), some %% chance, very low but existent (e.g. 0.5% plus punishment events). Problem being that this would make their wives available for remarriage, which shouldn't be happening (see below for wives).
11. Members can't act as army leaders against Christians unless maybe when defending. Waived when DoW-ed by a Christian and defending (but still a penalty, I guess).
12. Order can't use most CBs against Christians in most circumstances and never without a hefty penalty. Should generally stay away from law change or claim wars and be unable to pursue de iure claims that they have or that their courtiers or vassals have. Exception: plot event could still fire but at the price of hefty penalties and large risk of excommunication affecting the decision-maker (Teutonic Knights got themselves excommunicated around 1309 for doing just that in Pomeralia), deposition (revocation) if a commander under the grandmaster. Should mostly but not totally stay away from plotting for succession law changes, claimants, authority etc., joining with lower but still visible frequency but not actually participating in the ensuing war if the faction event is fired and leads to war. Example: they'd put their signature under the ultimatum but not rise in arms against liege when rejected. Similar rule for usurpation or claim fabrication: existent but rare. Perhaps Teutonic Knights excluded (they were aggressive and not above questionable means of expansion).

(Seeing Teutonic Knights forge claims, usurp titles, declare de iure wars etc. is hardly ahistorical but Templars and Hospitaliers didn't do that.)

13. Minor chivalric orders, e.g. Calatrava, Avis, Dobrzyn Brothers, Sword Brothers, Order of the Holy Sepulchre and others. Generally named after the barony or county first granted by the founder, creatable by characters. A special case could be Lazarites, being the place where leprous members of other orders would go, leprous pious knights could finish their lives and so on.
14. Joining an order (as a full member) could be a form of abdication for a landed character, including a human player's character. The character would then be succeeded under normal rules and can't inherit or gain anything any more (other than being given land or titles by his order) but lives on and can, for example, become the grandmaster or otherwise someone important. You could run into him when fighting in a crusade or holy war (e.g. young King of Jerusalem finds his dad the Templar leading the other flank in a battle) just like with junior members of your dynasty who decided to join the order.
15. Low opinion with the Pope affecting the chance to be promoted or awarded a title within the order (minor obstacle or higher when the opinion is more strongly negative) or becoming the next grandmaster (major obstacle, the Pope not being a normal feudal sovereign but being a religious superior). Liege opinion by analogy, if the order has a liege (e.g. King of Jerusalem).
16. High chance of wife blocking the decision to become a full member (celibate!) when she doesn't have the Celibate trait herself, lowered when Chaste, increased when Lustful. (Should be the same when a character becomes bishop really. But shouldn't be a divorce because she shouldn't become able to remarry.) Historically, you needed your spouse's consent to make a vow of continence when married.
 
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