Proposal: Fixing Coalition Peace Terms

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TheSavage01

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Even those who like the basic idea of coalitions (such as myself) recognize that the mechanic needs work. The coalition mechanic has two basic components:
1) How coalitions form (i.e. how AE is distributed)
2) Restrictions on coalition peace terms (e.g. no separate peace with juniors).
Putting aside #1 (which has improved in the latest beta), below is a simple proposal fixing #2. The proposal would still allow for coalitions to serve as a roadblock to expansion, but would also provide a way to avoid fighting the same huge coalition war again and again for little gain.

Basic Proposal
Put simply, my proposal is to make coalitions less rigid by providing a mechanism for the target to break the coalition, or at least break certain members from the coalition. Under this system, the coalition target can make separate peace with any coalition member, but only for the member leaving the war and perhaps leaving the coalition for a set period of time. For example, the following unilateral warscores (between only target and junior member) might allow the following peace concessions:
-33% WS: Junior member exits war
-67% WS: Junior member exits war and leaves coalition for 7 years
-100% WS: Junior member exits war and leaves coalition for 15 years

Anti-Exploit: To prevent target from forcing junior member from coalition and then simply attacking them (without protection of coalition) shortly after, the mechanic would need one of two features:
(a) a truce between target and member for the duration of the member's ban from the coalition, or
(b) the member remains "in" the coalition (retaining protection of other members) but cannot join any coalition war where it is not the target

Extension #1: Full Break of Coalition
This is not the core of the proposal but is an additional feature that might be considered. If the target achieves a specific, high multilateral war score (so against the entire coalition), the target could demand that the coalition be "broken" for a set period of time, meaning that all coalition members involved in the war would exit the coalition (or, at least, remain as "defensive" members only, retaining the coalition's protection but unable to join a war where it is not the target).

Extension #2: Allow concessions
In the peace negotiations with junior member, the target would be able to offer limited concessions to member (such as returning core or releasing vassal) to secure their break from the coalition. For example, with target France and GB as junior member, if France has WS of +20% against GB (not enough with above numbers to secure exit), they could offer to return Calais to GB in exchange from GB exiting the war. (Note, this is a peace where both parties are making concessions: France returning Calais and GB exiting war. This also serves the main purpose of coalitions - slowing/reversing expansion of the target - while still allowing target to avoid fighting same huge coalition war again and again.)

Extension #3: Peacetime Appeasement
Allow coalition target to make concessions during peacetime to secure exit of member from coalition for set period of time. Example: Again, France is target and GB is member. France holds Calais and is allied to enemy of GB. GB wants Calais and wants to break alliance. France offers to cede Calais to GB and break alliance with British enemy in exchange for GB exiting the coalition for set period of time.

I think implementing the basic proposal and perhaps some of the extensions:
1) is feasible in terms of development without a major overhaul of the engine and could be handled by the AI
2) would fix a lot of the current problems with coalitions
3) would make coalitions (and the game in general) more fluid, realistic and strategic, and thus more fun
4) would still allow coalitions to serve as roadblocks to blobs, and would not represent a "nerf" or coalitions

Open to suggestions. Opinions?
 

TheMeInTeam

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New mechanics would need time for testing. At the very least, they could for now treat a coalition as one giant nation, with the coalition leader's capitol as the capitol and everything else being fair game. That adds risk to joining, reward for beating them, and the ability to annex two one-base tax opms if they're the only members of a coalition.
 

Merrivale

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Even those who like the basic idea of coalitions (such as myself) recognize that the mechanic needs work. The coalition mechanic has two basic components:
1) How coalitions form (i.e. how AE is distributed)
2) Restrictions on coalition peace terms (e.g. no separate peace with juniors).
Putting aside #1 (which has improved in the latest beta), below is a simple proposal fixing #2. The proposal would still allow for coalitions to serve as a roadblock to expansion, but would also provide a way to avoid fighting the same huge coalition war again and again for little gain.

Basic Proposal
Put simply, my proposal is to make coalitions less rigid by providing a mechanism for the target to break the coalition, or at least break certain members from the coalition. Under this system, the coalition target can make separate peace with any coalition member, but only for the member leaving the war and perhaps leaving the coalition for a set period of time. For example, the following unilateral warscores (between only target and junior member) might allow the following peace concessions:
-33% WS: Junior member exits war
-67% WS: Junior member exits war and leaves coalition for 7 years
-100% WS: Junior member exits war and leaves coalition for 15 years

Anti-Exploit: To prevent target from forcing junior member from coalition and then simply attacking them (without protection of coalition) shortly after, the mechanic would need one of two features:
(a) a truce between target and member for the duration of the member's ban from the coalition, or
(b) the member remains "in" the coalition (retaining protection of other members) but cannot join any coalition war where it is not the target

Extension #1: Full Break of Coalition
This is not the core of the proposal but is an additional feature that might be considered. If the target achieves a specific, high multilateral war score (so against the entire coalition), the target could demand that the coalition be "broken" for a set period of time, meaning that all coalition members involved in the war would exit the coalition (or, at least, remain as "defensive" members only, retaining the coalition's protection but unable to join a war where it is not the target).

Extension #2: Allow concessions
In the peace negotiations with junior member, the target would be able to offer limited concessions to member (such as returning core or releasing vassal) to secure their break from the coalition. For example, with target France and GB as junior member, if France has WS of +20% against GB (not enough with above numbers to secure exit), they could offer to return Calais to GB in exchange from GB exiting the war. (Note, this is a peace where both parties are making concessions: France returning Calais and GB exiting war. This also serves the main purpose of coalitions - slowing/reversing expansion of the target - while still allowing target to avoid fighting same huge coalition war again and again.)

Extension #3: Peacetime Appeasement
Allow coalition target to make concessions during peacetime to secure exit of member from coalition for set period of time. Example: Again, France is target and GB is member. France holds Calais and is allied to enemy of GB. GB wants Calais and wants to break alliance. France offers to cede Calais to GB and break alliance with British enemy in exchange for GB exiting the coalition for set period of time.

I think implementing the basic proposal and perhaps some of the extensions:
1) is feasible in terms of development without a major overhaul of the engine and could be handled by the AI
2) would fix a lot of the current problems with coalitions
3) would make coalitions (and the game in general) more fluid, realistic and strategic, and thus more fun
4) would still allow coalitions to serve as roadblocks to blobs, and would not represent a "nerf" or coalitions

Open to suggestions. Opinions?

+1, I'd only add:
Defeating a coalition in war should immediately break the coalition, with members free to re-enter immediately (this is if you didn't use your warscore to ban members or ban the coalition), but given a decaying lost war modifier so that members who were more borderline are unlikely to rejoin.
Coalitions should be given a leader, and you should be able to use spy actions to try to drive wedges between members and the leader, with the goal of getting nations to exit

At this point I think we can safely say that PI has seen these ideas, to my knowledge no one there has responded to them (variants have been brought up before) which is sort of a good news/bad news situation. The good news is that Johan hasn't popped in to say "no", so this is still possible. The bad news is that no one has popped in to say they are working on something. Personally I think they may be saving it for a DLC patch, since it's new mechanics to some degree. Whether that's the upcoming WoN or not I don't know, but I doubt it.
 

ragingrondo12

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Even those who like the basic idea of coalitions (such as myself) recognize that the mechanic needs work. The coalition mechanic has two basic components:
1) How coalitions form (i.e. how AE is distributed)
2) Restrictions on coalition peace terms (e.g. no separate peace with juniors).
Putting aside #1 (which has improved in the latest beta), below is a simple proposal fixing #2. The proposal would still allow for coalitions to serve as a roadblock to expansion, but would also provide a way to avoid fighting the same huge coalition war again and again for little gain.

Basic Proposal
Put simply, my proposal is to make coalitions less rigid by providing a mechanism for the target to break the coalition, or at least break certain members from the coalition. Under this system, the coalition target can make separate peace with any coalition member, but only for the member leaving the war and perhaps leaving the coalition for a set period of time. For example, the following unilateral warscores (between only target and junior member) might allow the following peace concessions:
-33% WS: Junior member exits war
-67% WS: Junior member exits war and leaves coalition for 7 years
-100% WS: Junior member exits war and leaves coalition for 15 years

Anti-Exploit: To prevent target from forcing junior member from coalition and then simply attacking them (without protection of coalition) shortly after, the mechanic would need one of two features:
(a) a truce between target and member for the duration of the member's ban from the coalition, or
(b) the member remains "in" the coalition (retaining protection of other members) but cannot join any coalition war where it is not the target

Extension #1: Full Break of Coalition
This is not the core of the proposal but is an additional feature that might be considered. If the target achieves a specific, high multilateral war score (so against the entire coalition), the target could demand that the coalition be "broken" for a set period of time, meaning that all coalition members involved in the war would exit the coalition (or, at least, remain as "defensive" members only, retaining the coalition's protection but unable to join a war where it is not the target).

Extension #2: Allow concessions
In the peace negotiations with junior member, the target would be able to offer limited concessions to member (such as returning core or releasing vassal) to secure their break from the coalition. For example, with target France and GB as junior member, if France has WS of +20% against GB (not enough with above numbers to secure exit), they could offer to return Calais to GB in exchange from GB exiting the war. (Note, this is a peace where both parties are making concessions: France returning Calais and GB exiting war. This also serves the main purpose of coalitions - slowing/reversing expansion of the target - while still allowing target to avoid fighting same huge coalition war again and again.)

Extension #3: Peacetime Appeasement
Allow coalition target to make concessions during peacetime to secure exit of member from coalition for set period of time. Example: Again, France is target and GB is member. France holds Calais and is allied to enemy of GB. GB wants Calais and wants to break alliance. France offers to cede Calais to GB and break alliance with British enemy in exchange for GB exiting the coalition for set period of time.

I think implementing the basic proposal and perhaps some of the extensions:
1) is feasible in terms of development without a major overhaul of the engine and could be handled by the AI
2) would fix a lot of the current problems with coalitions
3) would make coalitions (and the game in general) more fluid, realistic and strategic, and thus more fun
4) would still allow coalitions to serve as roadblocks to blobs, and would not represent a "nerf" or coalitions

Open to suggestions. Opinions?

Sounds Beautiful, relatively historically accurate. Now if only PDX and most of the other people on the forums would agree to implement this.

You have my full support. +1
 

Saintrl

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I like this idea of more flexible coalition negotiations. Although I'm not sure if the devs would implement something like this I think this is something that would work great in an overhaul mod. +1
 

Fryslan0109

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+1, I'd only add:
Defeating a coalition in war should immediately break the coalition, with members free to re-enter immediately (this is if you didn't use your warscore to ban members or ban the coalition), but given a decaying lost war modifier so that members who were more borderline are unlikely to rejoin.

^This.
 

TheSavage01

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+1, I'd only add:
Defeating a coalition in war should immediately break the coalition, with members free to re-enter immediately (this is if you didn't use your warscore to ban members or ban the coalition), but given a decaying lost war modifier so that members who were more borderline are unlikely to rejoin.

I really like this idea - that coalitions "break" when defeated - but thought that it might be too big of a nerf and too easily exploited for the Pro-Coalition faction to accept.
 

Dr.Goldstein

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+1, I'd only add:
Defeating a coalition in war should immediately break the coalition, with members free to re-enter immediately (this is if you didn't use your warscore to ban members or ban the coalition), but given a decaying lost war modifier so that members who were more borderline are unlikely to rejoin.
Coalitions should be given a leader, and you should be able to use spy actions to try to drive wedges between members and the leader, with the goal of getting nations to exit

At this point I think we can safely say that PI has seen these ideas, to my knowledge no one there has responded to them (variants have been brought up before) which is sort of a good news/bad news situation. The good news is that Johan hasn't popped in to say "no", so this is still possible. The bad news is that no one has popped in to say they are working on something. Personally I think they may be saving it for a DLC patch, since it's new mechanics to some degree. Whether that's the upcoming WoN or not I don't know, but I doubt it.

Maybe there could be a prestige/stability hit to losing an offensive coalition war, and a relations modifier to accepting CtA offensive coalition wars to reflect it.
 

Merrivale

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I really like this idea - that coalitions "break" when defeated - but thought that it might be too big of a nerf and too easily exploited for the Pro-Coalition faction to accept.

Well, the key point is that the coalition can immediately reform, unlike if you use your war score to ban the coalition (if our hypothetical system was implemented). So say you're France and you've got a coalition of GB, Spain, Netherlands, Austria, Inca, Vij, and Tuscany, which you defeat. Your AE on Vij and Austria was borderline before, now with the lost war modifier it gets low enough that they aren't going to rejoin the coalition against you immediately. But GB, Spain, Netherlands, Inca, and Tuscany will. Only now Tuscany is a borderline case with the lost war modifier and just a little diplomatic effort will get them out as well.

Basically the idea is that having lost their war to try to hem you in, nations re-evaluate if this is something they really want to do. Those that have high enough AE to withstand the addition of the lost war modifier will stay, in particular if you've got big AE (someone does have to restart the coalition). So this system wouldn't affect people who rack up large amounts of AE too much, but those that are careful should see some benefits.